Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

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rrosskopf
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by rrosskopf » 08 Apr 2019, 16:44

Roy wrote:
08 Apr 2019, 09:27
The LDS church position (as I understand it) is that a scientific approach will not be enough to convince an individual of the historicity of the BoM. It requires a spiritual witness and is a matter of faith.
I am merely preparing the soil so that faith may grow.

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dande48
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by dande48 » 08 Apr 2019, 21:00

The trouble is, there is no possibility of evidence that could "disprove" the Book of Mormon, in the minds of those who ardently believe it. If the prophet came out and said it was all a lie, there would still be believers. If the characters of one of the translated pages were examined and translated by multiple professionals, and outright proved Joseph Smith's translation to be false, there would still be believers. If most of the historical claims of the Book of Mormon were found to be inexplicibly missing, there would still be believers.

There are many things that would prove the Book of Mormon, were they found to be true. For example, if Joseph Smith had translated some ancient writing, and we still have original document translated from, and that translation were proven to be correct. Or if there were etchings taken from the plates, and professionally examined from multiple sources, and found to correctly be some form of "reformed Egyptian". If there were other historical records found, corroborating the events in the Book of Mormon, that would be another sure sign. If there was any sort of "reformed Egyptian" or Hebrew-related language found in ancient America, that would be good evidence.

But there are too many evidences against the Book of Mormon, for it to be considered "the Most Correct Book of any book on Earth", or even accurate for that matter. Too many "coincidences", and overtly complex explainations for things which don't add up.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
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SamBee
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by SamBee » 09 Apr 2019, 01:41

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DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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rrosskopf
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by rrosskopf » 09 Apr 2019, 02:51

dande48 wrote:
08 Apr 2019, 21:00
The trouble is, there is no possibility of evidence that could "disprove" the Book of Mormon, in the minds of those who ardently believe it.
Is that really a problem? Are there too many ardent supporters of the law of gravity? The spherical shape of the earth? Mortality? I think the real problem is that some have experienced a type of knowledge that scares the others.
Yes, I'll admit to rooting for sanity. Because if the Book of Mormon isn't true to the extent that I believe, then it is likely that I am insane. I can honestly say that I don't feel insane. I can't really imagine how insanity would answer all the questions either. People who are insane have huge gaps in their memories where things don't add up, where reality and fantasy meet. I'm not experiencing that. If it is a cosmic joke, it's a pretty good one. I am not alone in my wonder, my open jawed awe, at what shouldn't be possible. If accidental ape men is really the best explanation of human history, then where does LDS history fit in? What explains an aberation like Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon?
The biggest problem that skeptics face, in my opinion, is that they take pot shots, expecting to disprove Mormonism with a single shot. Some even take a scatter gun approach, shooting blindly in a hundred different directions. They weave a tapestry that has almost nothing in common with reported reality. Their explanations don't explain anything.
The common explanation is that Joseph Smith was a convicted con artist. Not only does that not fit the facts, it isn't even accurate. The only conviction I can find is for improper banking procedures, for which Joseph had to pay a fine. Hardly the stuff of blatent flim flam. And of course it doesn't explain how so many people saw visions, even in broad daylight, even seeing the same visions together, or in one case miles apart. And no amount of visionary explanation can suggest how Joseph Smith ended up with such a complex and credible history as the Book of Mormon, except perhaps the one offered by Joseph Smith. If someone were to magically meet both of those hurdles, then there is the obvious problem that Joseph Smith gives no indication that he doesn't believe what he teaches. Here is a man which, never having healed a single person, commands that a women's withered and useless arm be healed, in the company of an atheist and a minister. Talk about chutspa. And of course, it is immediately healed, on the spot, at that very moment. Where does that kind of certainty come from? It is like law of gravity certainty, or the certainty that we are all going to die. It isn't a matter of probability. There isn't a long line of failed attempts. Whatever it is, I want to bottle it.
So we have abundant credible eye witness testimony that forms the backbone of LDS history, and skeptics taking pot shots at what they can't believe.

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dande48
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by dande48 » 09 Apr 2019, 06:35

EXACTLY, Sam. Anthon Script has been studied by both LDS and non-LDS scholarsrosett, and determined to be gibberish. So the new explanation comes "that is not the original Anthon Script!" Well, luckily we have the Egyptian papyra JS used to translate the Book of Abraham! But it turns out those characters don't match Joseph Smith's translation. "So those characters are unrelated to the facsimile, and the real translation came from other parts of the papyra we now don't have." Or "The papyra was just a tool used to facilitate translation."

What if someone hid the Book of Mormon manuscripts from Joseph Smith, forced him to re-translate, and compared the transcripts to see if the matched? Turns out that was just a long elaborate plan from God to "teach Joseph a lesson", and those who stole the papers had a conspiracy from Satan to undermine the Church, and those who knew JS was a prophet changed the characters to falsely accuse Joseph Smith of lying, and undermine the Restoration... instead of, you know, Joseph Smith couldn't re-translate, knew he couldn't re-translate, came up with an elaborate conspiratorial explanation why he couldn't re-translate, and a convenient way to get around re-translating. Instead of, when comparisons were made, saying "that's a forgery, those characters were changed". Or even better, God telling Joseph where the transcript ended up, and exposing the conspiracy!

Well, what are some parts of the Book of Mormon we can "check the translation of"? Looks like it copies directly and explicitly from the JKV! So in translation, if there were any "mis-translations" in the JKV, God would've surely had those corrected. I mean, isn't that the grand significance of the Book of Mormon, to restore the truths lost by the bible? Except we now have earlier biblical transcripts which contract the JKV... not to mention the JST contradicts the JKV bible passages found in the Book of Mormon.
rrosskopf wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 02:51
Is that really a problem? Are there too many ardent supporters of the law of gravity? The spherical shape of the earth? Mortality?
The thing is, the spherical shape of the earth can be, were the right evidence to exist, disproven. It's not that difficult. And everyone who once believed in a spherical earth would believe in a flat earth. Scientists would rejoice, if the spherical shape of the earth, if gravity, or if mortality (which the LDS has claimed is overcome), were disproven. However, no one who believes in a flat earth can be convinced of a spherical earth, no matter what hard evidence is presented to them. It's always another conspiracy, another long-stretch explanation, etc. Flat earther's commitment to their faith is just as unshakable as your belief in the Book of Mormon. As flat earther's have said,
"Some have experienced a type of knowledge that scares the others."
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by Curt Sunshine » 09 Apr 2019, 10:30

Admin Note: I simply feel the need to stress our mission here, which is support of each other in our individual journeys as we strive to stay LDS to whatever degree possible.

Nobody here has special knowledge that scares people who disagree with them. We are not here to argue that traditional views are the one true views, nor are we here to argue that non-traditional views are the one true views. Due to the nature of our mission, most people here do not have traditional views about many things, but our mission is to support each other, not argue with each other.

That can be hard for many new participants to understand, and it can be easy for established participants to forget. Please keep that in mind, both older and newer participants, as new people get used to our mission and the environment here.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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nibbler
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by nibbler » 09 Apr 2019, 10:43

Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon
I think it all comes down to:

Yeah-huh.
Nu-uh.

For whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

:angel:
If one dream dies, dream another dream. If you get knocked down, get back up and go again.
― Joel Osteen

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by Curt Sunshine » 09 Apr 2019, 10:51

Exhibit A of why I love nibbler. :P
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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DarkJedi
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by DarkJedi » 09 Apr 2019, 11:02

nibbler wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 10:43
Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon
I think it all comes down to:

Yeah-huh.
Nu-uh.

For whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

:angel:
:lol: :thumbup:
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Rumin8
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Re: Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon

Post by Rumin8 » 09 Apr 2019, 11:32

nibbler wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 10:43
Joseph Smith Could Not Have Written the Book of Mormon
I think it all comes down to:

Yeah-huh.
Nu-uh.

For whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

:angel:
This is perfection! Love it.
"Moderation in all things, especially moderation." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Be excellent to each other." - Abraham Lincoln to Bill & Ted

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