Wayward children of faithful LDS parents

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
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nibbler
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Re: Wayward children of faithful LDS parents

Post by nibbler »

Heber13 wrote: 05 Jul 2018, 09:29 It strikes me that a call to repentance is something the faithful feel is necessary (because of their strong convictions), but the receiver rarely feels loved from it. It adds to the divide.
Because it places people on unequal footing. It elevates one person above another. It can be hard to call someone to repentance without inadvertantly conveying the message that "I know better than you" or "I am better than you." It's hard to feel loved in an environment where you're always made to feel inadequate or as if you are doing something wrong.

- - - - - - - - - -

I feel like a part of the culture of the church is viewing people's relationship with the church as a referendum on their relationship with god. Active, TR holding, calling magnifier? CK material. Inactive or worse yet, conscientiously left the church? You've blown your chance. Doctrine and Covenants 76 has a whole section dedicated with trying to untangle the mess of all the fears we created when we placed rules around governing where we go in the afterlife and why.

I think this is no different. Parents become distraught because they feel like they are losing their children for eternity simply because their relationship with a church doesn't fit the prescribed mold. So distraught that we then had to address the new fears that were created when we feel our children are lost to us... that the sealing power will ensure we don't lose them for forever.

Wrangling over what our relationship will be like in the eternities can interfere with our ability to have relationships right now. Will god separate us from a loved one in heaven or will our own judgments push them away?
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AmyJ
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Re: Wayward children of faithful LDS parents

Post by AmyJ »

DarkJedi wrote: 05 Jul 2018, 13:08
DJ, as you prepare for your talk...can you answer this question I have come to ponder:
- Why do we need to do Family History work? Won't it all get figured out in the next life one way or another? What exactly are we trying to do?
Those might be exactly the questions I am trying to avoid answering because I don't know the answers. :shock: I'm not sure I want to know the answers. I am at best agnostic about family history, but I do hope and believe that we can be joined together as a family of God's children eternally.
I came to a greater peace with family history when I realized that the flavor practiced by the LDS faith was part of the rituals designed to connect us both to our ancestors and to future generations. That is what we are trying to do - involve ourselves in efforts to connect ourselves to other generations - both in this life, and as preparation for the life to come. I see traces of this in the 10 commandments "Thou Shalt Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother", and in the oft-quoted Malachi scriptures and partly in the focus on temple work.

<Shrugs> Others have incense sticks and shrines and we have PAF, family history centers, and temples. Some of us do family history by recording stories of our ancestors and passing them onto the next generation. Others take a DNA test and trace their physical ancestry elsewhere. I compiled a physical/mental health chart documenting instances (and supposed instances) of depression, heart murmurs, diabetics, and alcoholism as far back as I could so that my siblings and those in the generations after me will have the information be able to trace their issues back successfully. I interviewed both of my parents, and my living grandfather for it so far. I think that long-term care of elderly parents also falls into family history.
If you take the broader view, a case could be made that whenever we look out for those before us or after us, we are working on family history. This will include protecting our elderly and young from abuse and volunteering for the Big Brother/Big Sister or other programs.

It also makes the question "What are you doing about family history" both easier to swallow and more expansive :lol:
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DarkJedi
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Re: Wayward children of faithful LDS parents

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No doubt Amy there is a great deal of dogma associated with family history and temple stuff. More specifically, it is the dogma I am trying to avoid.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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nibbler
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Re: Wayward children of faithful LDS parents

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AmyJ wrote: 06 Jul 2018, 06:03 I came to a greater peace with family history when I realized that the flavor practiced by the LDS faith was part of the rituals designed to connect us both to our ancestors and to future generations. That is what we are trying to do - involve ourselves in efforts to connect ourselves to other generations - both in this life, and as preparation for the life to come. I see traces of this in the 10 commandments "Thou Shalt Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother", and in the oft-quoted Malachi scriptures and partly in the focus on temple work.
The rituals can help connect us but I believe a focus on the rituals can create a trap, the belief that we aren't connected unless we're doing the rituals.

That's the current I feel I'm constantly swimming against at church. The rituals are a vehicle, not the vehicle and not the end goal.
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AmyJ
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Re: Wayward children of faithful LDS parents

Post by AmyJ »

Absolutely, NIbbler!

I have authority issues regarding the temple and temple work right now. I am also pretty agnostic about the afterlife as well.

These 2 statements translated into a lot of cognitive dissonance regarding the traditional family history mindset and created an opportunity for me to divorce myself from the tribe. I chose to expand my definition of family history to include pertinent parts that did not trigger cognitive dissonance or sever myself from the tribe. I know a lot of people had different paths and different narratives - but this what worked for me the best so far.

So instead of the standard family history sedan, I ended up with an expanded human family school bus. It bears resemblance and has similar functions to the original model, but has more seating and goes slower. At the end of the day, the hope is that it will get the job done in terms of transportation. Also, most people do not mess with big vehicle drivers who appear to driving unsteadily because they do not want to be smushed by the bigger vehicle. I know of what I speak because I drove a 15 passenger van in my early twenties - and PEOPLE GOT OUT OF THE WAY of my van :P
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nibbler
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Re: Wayward children of faithful LDS parents

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AmyJ wrote: 06 Jul 2018, 09:19 So instead of the standard family history sedan, I ended up with an expanded human family school bus.
:thumbup:

I ended up with the Flintstones car. ;)
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Roy
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Re: Wayward children of faithful LDS parents

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Joseph Smith
When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.
Brigham Young
Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang.
Lorenzo Snow
God has fulfilled His promises to us, and our prospects are grand and glorious. Yes, in the next life we will have our wives, and our sons and daughters. If we do not get them all at once, we will have them some time … You that are mourning about your children straying away will have your sons and your daughters. If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions … you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity.
Joseph F. Smith
We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission.
Orson F. Whitney
You parents of the wilful and the wayward! Don’t give them up. Don’t cast them off. They are not utterly lost. The Shepherd will find his sheep. They were his before they were yours – long before he entrusted them to your care; and you cannot begin to love them as he loves them. They have but strayed in ignorance from the Path of Right, and God is merciful to ignorance. Only the fulness of knowledge brings the fulness of accountability. Our Heavenly Father is far more merciful, infinitely more charitable, than even the best of his servants, and the Everlasting Gospel is mightier in power to save than our narrow finite minds can comprehend.
The Prophet Joseph Smith declared – and he never taught more comforting doctrine – that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold.
Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.
John J. Carmack
In 1919 at general conference, Alonzo A. Hinckley, then president of the Deseret Stake of Zion, quoted Elder James E. Talmage of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as follows: “I promise the Saints in the Deseret stake of Zion that if their lives are such that they can look their sons and daughters in the face, and if any of them have gone astray, that the parents are able to say, It is contrary to my instruction and my life’s example; it is against every effort of love, long suffering, faith, prayer and devotion that that boy or girl has gone,’ – I promise you, fathers and mothers, that not one of them shall be lost unless they have sinned away the power to repent” (in Conference Report, October 1919, 161).
Gordon B. Hinckley
I leave my blessing upon you. May there be … a sense of security and peace and love among your children, precious children every one of them, even those who may have strayed. I hope you don’t lose patience with them; I hope you go on praying for them, and I don’t hesitate to promise that if you do, the Lord will touch their hearts and bring them back to you with love and respect and appreciation.
I love these quotes. I love the comfort they give to parents who may have very little control or influence over the choices of their adult children.

These quotes seem to share some elements with our doctrine that children that die before the age of 8 need no repentance or ordinances but are automatically exalted. Likewise the doctrine of the salvation/exaltation of little children does not make sense by the strictest definitions of agency, personal accountability and consequences. It is an anomaly or contradiction.

A young mother's baby dies without baptism in the 16th century and she is told that her child is forever doomed to purgatory. The scriptures were clear that nobody can be saved without baptism. The religious leaders of the time were only doing their duty in guarding the straightness of the gate that leads to heaven. We look back at her inconsolable heartache as needless anguish. If only she had known what was revealed in the BoM - that little children need no baptism and the religious leaders of the time, earnest though they were, did not speak for God on this subject.

It saddens me to have these quotes diminished. Who was being hurt by them. They have been around for over 100 years. Were children of temple sealed parents running around in debauchery thinking that they had a golden ticket? A "get out of jail free" card? Yes, there are no free lunches, the piper must always be paid, and the devil demands his pound of flesh BUT is not the GOOD NEWS of Christianity that our God paid the price for our behalf? That God redeemed the sinner and set the captive free?

I worry that sometimes we look at the captives running free and think to ourselves, "That is not right. They deserve to be in jail for the choices that they made. Just look them! How happy and carefree they are?!?! Let's go round them up and lock them away again."
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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DarkJedi
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Re: Wayward children of faithful LDS parents

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^ Thanks Roy. Love it. And you did a great deal of research I now won't have to do. They asked for a talk on family history and the temple and by golly they're going to get one like they've never heard before! (as sure as the sun rose over yonder mountain) ;)
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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dande48
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Re: Wayward children of faithful LDS parents

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Roy wrote: 08 Jul 2018, 16:54 It saddens me to have these quotes diminished. Who was being hurt by them. They have been around for over 100 years. Were children of temple sealed parents running around in debauchery thinking that they had a golden ticket? A "get out of jail free" card? Yes, there are no free lunches, the piper must always be paid, and the devil demands his pound of flesh BUT is not the GOOD NEWS of Christianity that our God paid the price for our behalf? That God redeemed the sinner and set the captive free?

I worry that sometimes we look at the captives running free and think to ourselves, "That is not right. They deserve to be in jail for the choices that they made. Just look them! How happy and carefree they are?!?! Let's go round them up and lock them away again."
Awesome quotes Roy. I love the feeling behind them. But as a follow up question, what's the point? I mean, if this life is supposed to be a teaching experience to make us Christ-like, celestial beings, but we can all "come around" in the next life, what are we doing here? If this life is a test, but failing doesn't matter, what's the point of it?
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

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Roy
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Re: Wayward children of faithful LDS parents

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dande48 wrote: 09 Jul 2018, 05:49 if this life is supposed to be a teaching experience to make us Christ-like, celestial beings, but we can all "come around" in the next life, what are we doing here? If this life is a test, but failing doesn't matter, what's the point of it?
The answer is, of course, 42! ;)

1) This question applies equally to children that die before the age of eight. "If this life is a test, but [not being tested] doesn't matter, what's the point of it?"

2) I am not convinced that active LDS members are necessarily more Christ-like than non-members (especially if those non-members belong to their own religious and/or charity organizations). Nor am I convinced that the promise of a huge reward at the end of it all is the most helpful to promoting Christ-like attitudes. I am sure that we would all enjoy the moment where all those that mocked us in this life are made into our ministering servants for eternity, but is that the sort of motivation that builds celestial character? Doing good things for less than altruistic reasons is still good - just not celestial. If the purpose of life is to make us into Christ-like, celestial beings then using the temple recommend as a shorthand for worthiness is potentially flawed.

3) Finally, I feel that religion works best when it helps us to cope with the vissisitudes of life. I believe the afterlife (as a concept) was developed to serve the challenges found in this life rather than the challenges in this life being developed to prepare us for the afterlife. When a religion produces worry, fear, anxiety, anguish, heartache, despair, and a sense of permanent loss - I feel that particular religion is being less helpful than I would like.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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