Modern-day Experiences With The Second Comforter

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dande48
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Re: Modern-day Experiences With The Second Comforter

Post by dande48 » 29 Jun 2018, 10:07

Ilovechrist77 wrote:
28 Jun 2018, 20:03
Dande48, do you mean the Doctrine of Christ Study Guide? If you do, you're right.
That's what I meant.
SamBee wrote:
29 Jun 2018, 03:40
I've never heard this doctrine discussed openly in church.
It's not really "canonized" doctrine, per say. The author of the study guide makes a lot of inferences and implications not exactly spelled out in LDS doctrine. Which is totally cool, for anyone who "chooses to believe" in it, or wants to look into views. I'm sure many people will find it both useful and enlightening. But it's a little too unauthoritative, and stretches things a little too far for my tastes.

[Admin Note]: Due to some of the statements on the study guide website, the url link and the exact study guide title were removed while administrators do some more research about what it contains.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Modern-day Experiences With The Second Comforter

Post by Curt Sunshine » 29 Jun 2018, 12:13

First, I personally do not believe in an objective Second Comforter. That is just me. No skin off my nose if others believe in it, as long as it doesn't cause heightened arrogance and judgment. I simply see no justification whatsoever for it in our scriptural canon, particularly since we have multiple accounts of apostles and prophets who have not mentioned it at all. (I know: It is private and shouldn't be recounted. Okay.) I have read justifications of it, but I don't see it. Ironic wording, I know. :D

Second, this is from the website that contains the study guide mentioned:
It is authored anonymously to ensure that you focus on the message instead of the messenger.
Frankly, I distrust anything that is published anonymously with that kind of justification. I just don't trust it.

Further:
The authors are not followers of any one person quoted or referenced within this compilation but rather they are followers of Christ and His word.
My alarm bells go off wildly when I read this. Even if they are honest in their assertion that they are not followers of any one person quoted or referenced in their writings, the simple fact that they reference specific people about whom they need to say that at least implies they are citing sources that would be considered apostate by the Church leadership - and that they would be disciplined because of it. That seems like a much more likely reason to publish anonymously than so readers can focus on the message. One is meant to sound magnanimous; the other is self-serving and protectionist of themselves. I am skeptical of their stated reason for anonymity.

I see the idea of a Second Comforter as the result of people (former leaders) digging into the mysteries and coming up with doctrines that could provide another layer of exceptionalism for the "truly" committed. It just doesn't do anything for me.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Re: Modern-day Experiences With The Second Comforter

Post by Curt Sunshine » 29 Jun 2018, 12:26

[Admnin Note]: I skimmed enough of the materials on the website to get a decent feel for the message. The site is Snufferite to the small details. It oozes from the pages and the documents. Snuffer and his followers have made a point of claiming not be followers of anyone but Christ, but those who support Snuffer are followers in every meaningful definition of that word.

Snuffer is an apostate, no matter how it is defined. We have discussed that in detail in the past. We will not link to sites that support his movement, no matter how carefully they try to hide that fact.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Ilovechrist77
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Re: Modern-day Experiences With The Second Comforter

Post by Ilovechrist77 » 29 Jun 2018, 12:43

I agree. It does stretch a little too far. It's interesting, though. Another I've read about another person that's experienced the Second Comforter is called How To Have Your Second Comforter by Anonymous, seriously he doesn't give his real name. Fascinating book. He teaches being humble like Nephi, becoming like a little child, faith, repentance, baptism, scripture study, goes into detail about many of the issues that might keep people from experiencing the Second Comforter, his Second Comforter experiences, deeper prayer techniques, visualization exercises, fasting not just from food, the types of angels of light and angels of darkness, avoiding the adversary, you name it he mentioned it. Much of his counsel was good, but some of his material comes across as too dramatic (his prayer techniques), seems a a bit obsessed with avoiding Satan, and sometimes I happen to wonder if some of these experiences are coming from God and not his imagination or the Devil, although he constantly stress to get spiritual confirmation over everything.

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dande48
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Re: Modern-day Experiences With The Second Comforter

Post by dande48 » 29 Jun 2018, 13:59

FWIW, I'm totally cool with whatever beliefs anyone wants to hold, as long as they don't declare "holy war", harass, or assault others. And as far as LDS doctrine is concerned, I am "apostate" by certain definitions, for not believing in the divinity of a lot of what is taught. But I make no claims to authority outside of my own moral compass and experience. I fully admit I might be (and probably am) wrong about many things, and have been wrong about many things in the past. I'm willing to change my mind, as my experience develops.

But I am highly skeptical of ANYONE who makes claims to Authority and Revelation from God. If it's personal revelation, you do you. If it's for the Church, "Any True Follower of Christ", or the world, it makes me skeptical and squeamish. I am perfectly content with the "revelations" coming from the GAs over the pulpit at general conference. It is mostly basic, good advice, mingled with story and parable. Beyond that, it is policy. I might not agree with all of it... I might not enjoy all of it. But it is mostly good, mostly useful, and I appreciate it.

Compared with the Snufferites, their study guides, or "How To Have Your Second Comforter by Anonymous"... those books and doctrines remind me a lot of the "Journal of Discourses" and early Church Conference Addresses. There are a lot of unsubstantiated claims, a lot of deep (no offense, but I'd call them worthless), unprovable, inapplicable doctrines. A lot of mysticism. A lot of appeals to authority, mingled with claims of condemnation to those who don't believe. With all due respect, they feel manipulative. I can be a modern "Stay LDS". But I could not be a "Stay Brighamite". And I could not possibly be a "Snufferite".
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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nibbler
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Re: Modern-day Experiences With The Second Comforter

Post by nibbler » 29 Jun 2018, 14:09

The authors are not followers of any one person quoted or referenced within this compilation but rather they are followers of Christ and His word.
Kind of reminds me of what we say when people question whether the church is Christian. :P

Disclaimer before my next comment: we've all led different lives and have had different experiences, we all read and interpret things through our lens.
being humble like Nephi
That shouldn't be too hard. :angel:

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Re: Modern-day Experiences With The Second Comforter

Post by Curt Sunshine » 01 Jul 2018, 20:14

Yep. I don't read the Book of Mormon and see Nephi as a paragon of humility. :P
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SamBee
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Re: Modern-day Experiences With The Second Comforter

Post by SamBee » 02 Jul 2018, 10:41

Curt Sunshine wrote:
01 Jul 2018, 20:14
Yep. I don't read the Book of Mormon and see Nephi as a paragon of humility. :P
His brothers certainly didn't think so!
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Heber13
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Re: Modern-day Experiences With The Second Comforter

Post by Heber13 » 02 Jul 2018, 10:58

SamBee wrote:
02 Jul 2018, 10:41
Curt Sunshine wrote:
01 Jul 2018, 20:14
Yep. I don't read the Book of Mormon and see Nephi as a paragon of humility. :P
His brothers certainly didn't think so!
How could they NOT see him as the most humble guy who ever told his own story from his perspective? They were so blinded by their wickedness...that's what Nephi said about them, anyway. :wtf:

If only they were more like him! If only all of us were more like him!

I think I'm more an Ishmael.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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dande48
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Re: Modern-day Experiences With The Second Comforter

Post by dande48 » 02 Jul 2018, 12:10

Heber13 wrote:
02 Jul 2018, 10:58
I think I'm more an Ishmael.
The paragon of "going with the flow"...

"We'd like to take your daughters into the wilderness and marry them and start a new civilization."
"Ok"
And he died.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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