President Oaks and the Priesthood Restriction

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SamBee
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Re: President Oaks and the Priesthood Restriction

Post by SamBee » 14 Jun 2018, 01:31

Curt Sunshine wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 21:32
African continent membership is growing faster than anywhere else in the world. We now have over 600,000 members there, and the African immigrant population in the Church is growing.
We would have millions in Africa if it weren't for this. As far as I can tell, serious missionary efforts only began about forty years ago in most of these places, well over a century after most western churches.

In many places, prior baptisms etc were treated as unofficial and had to be redone.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have 600,000 members in Angola alone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%2 ... by_country
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: President Oaks and the Priesthood Restriction

Post by Curt Sunshine » 14 Jun 2018, 05:29

As I said, justice.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SilentDawning
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Re: President Oaks and the Priesthood Restriction

Post by SilentDawning » 14 Jun 2018, 12:22

I like the idea that the church got justice for our past actions.

For years, it bothered me that we had the blights of plural marriage, blacks and the priesthood, mountain meadows etcetera on our history. It was an impediment to progress. Now, based on posts here, I see it as a form of natural discipline for the church -- if only they would see it that way. Even if they don't. it seems just and peace-inducing.

As much as it would be nice to see the church flourish, to see it receive some natural consequences for the racism and unwillingness to admit fault, or apologize, is comforting. I look at my own diversion of my personal talents into the community as a form of justice for the church, and it brings me a certain amount of peace. Really -- when I reflect on the injustices I experienced a while ago, II often feel angst and disturbed. Then I reflect on the decisions I have made to redirect my involvement in church service to other avenues, and redirect it to the community -- along with my charitable donations. That brings me peace. Maybe the way a victim of a crime carries scars of the crime, but then finds some comfort in knowing the person who committed the infraction was subject to natural consequences through the law and the press. Post here is like a victim impact statement allowed in a court of law.

It makes it seem like this -- the church can continue on doing what is has done in the past, change slowly, or even be arrogant about itself if it wants. I don't care as I have my own plan for minimizing its negatives while continuing to capitalize on its strengths to the extent I am able. I see this modified, not-entirely-with-the-orthodox-program approach as a form of justice. Not revenge, but a natural consequence for terrible treatment of volunteers, taking people for granted, not acting in accordance with its divine commission, and failing to apologize when claims to a divine commission would suggest such apology was due.

I have to confess -- the behavior of church leaders has influenced my own orientation toward how I, as a leader treat volunteers. So, in a way, the injustices I experienced in the church have turned me into a better leader. Should I be thankful for that? Does it mean I should go back to embracing the church as an orthodox Mormon? Probably not, as the same injustices would continue. But it means that amidst the angst of past wrongs, I should probably feel thankful for the experience now that it has made me what I am as a leader of volunteers....we must learn to see the good in everything....
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

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DancingCarrot
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Re: President Oaks and the Priesthood Restriction

Post by DancingCarrot » 15 Jun 2018, 15:17

I really like your explanation, DJ. Especially because it forces me to admit that sometimes when I say I want justice, what I’m actually seeking for is punishment.

I also appreciate Curt’s explanation of the church getting what it deserves. The low membership among African Americans, the low numbers in Africa compared to other religions seem expected.

My two cents lie in the sense that I don’t think the church/general leadership believe there is much of anything to repent of, barring racism of the past and present. (Which is good on the one hand, seeing as there are plenty of churches in the USA where that is not the case. However, I hesitate to stop at congratulating people for being against racism.) My thing is that, overall, the revelation is viewed as necessary and inspired by God in a way I disagree with heavily. So it’s not so much that the church repented as it teaches repentance, so much as it was continuing to follow inspiration from God. To me, that smacks of arrogance that I cannot condone.


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Re: President Oaks and the Priesthood Restriction

Post by Ann » 23 Jun 2018, 02:19

I just listened to clips from Oaks’ talk. I’m amazed. He flat out said the ban was God’s command. What the heck?!?

I know this thread wasn’t in active topics, so I don’t expect more conversation. I just had to add my disbelief. Awhile ago I read (or heard, I can’t remember) Oaks recounting his joy and emotion upon getting the call that the ban was lifted. I loved the picture of it in my own mind. He said he and his sons we working on something at their cabin when the call came. He said he sat down on a pile of dirt and wept for joy.

So, all of that, and he stuns me with this.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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SamBee
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Re: President Oaks and the Priesthood Restriction

Post by SamBee » 23 Jun 2018, 03:28

Ann wrote:
23 Jun 2018, 02:19
I just listened to clips from Oaks’ talk. I’m amazed. He flat out said the ban was God’s command. What the heck?!?
Mormonism has this weird conundrum... officially we follow the current president's counsel over the previous ones, but we still can't admit some of previous ones might have been wrong.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Heber13
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Re: President Oaks and the Priesthood Restriction

Post by Heber13 » 23 Jun 2018, 06:00

It seems like a way to try to express faith amid uncertainty.

Things like..." We don't know why God does what he does, his ways are higher than our ways. But it is always for a purpose."

"We don't know why God told President Hinckley the Hoffman forgeries were real, but it was all part of the plan."

"We don't know why Joseph was commanded to setup a failure bank in Kirtland, but it was necessary."

"We don't know why Joseph thought the mummy scrolls would reveal ancient writings of Abraham and Moses, but they somehow were conduits to revelation and we now have the Pearl of Great Price...literal scripture lost to the world."

"We don't know why Nephi had to chop off a drunk guy's head to get some books, but it is all part of a plan."

God works in mysterious ways. So we tell ourselves, when we don't understand why past prophets said what they said. Or we don't want to just accept prophets and church policies were wrong.

I wonder how many things we will learn when we get to the other side were not of God but we were taught to have faith in it?

I expect God will say...
hey...I didn't do that...you all thought that up on your own.

I just couldn't believe you didn't ask me about it until 1978! What took so long?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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nibbler
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Re: President Oaks and the Priesthood Restriction

Post by nibbler » 23 Jun 2018, 06:49

Ann wrote:
23 Jun 2018, 02:19
I know this thread wasn’t in active topics, so I don’t expect more conversation. I just had to add my disbelief. Awhile ago I read (or heard, I can’t remember) Oaks recounting his joy and emotion upon getting the call that the ban was lifted. I loved the picture of it in my own mind. He said he and his sons we working on something at their cabin when the call came. He said he sat down on a pile of dirt and wept for joy.
That was a tough quote for me. It shows how our culture is more subservient to what a prophet says than to what we feel god is telling us. We're not "allowed" to express our righteous desires until the prophet gives the tribe permission to have them. I know that's a reductive way of looking at the issue but at times it's hard. We push back so hard and enact doctrines and policies that are exclusionary and I find myself wondering how many interpretations there are for, "that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:"

I wonder if Oaks' approach (recognizing that there's probably something wrong but deciding to be obedient to authority and remaining hopeful/patient) will work for rising generations? I suppose it has to, what other alternative is there? Or maybe that's the expectation of the members but rather than do that, members opt to leave?
Heber13 wrote:
23 Jun 2018, 06:00
I wonder how many things we will learn when we get to the other side were not of God but we were taught to have faith in it?

I expect God will say...
hey...I didn't do that...you all thought that up on your own.

I just couldn't believe you didn't ask me about it until 1978! What took so long?
Finger pointing, all the way down. ;) Sounds like the solution is an all-around healthy dose of, "lord, is it I?" ...but maybe the lord would have to ask, "me, is it me?"
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold
-Jesus

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Heber13
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Re: President Oaks and the Priesthood Restriction

Post by Heber13 » 23 Jun 2018, 08:28

I don't think the Lord would have to question his actions...he is perfect. He just allows prophets to be people and they will make mistakes and make stuff up and get it wrong as part of the learning process.

The Lord won't point fingers to make excuses, but to point out things as they really are.

Like...you wanted me to touch those stones to light the barges...that isn't the only way to approach that situation...but that is what you chose.

Prophets will also be judged for policies they enacted under their authority. Including Joseph as a rough stone rolling.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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nibbler
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Re: President Oaks and the Priesthood Restriction

Post by nibbler » 23 Jun 2018, 08:38

Heber13 wrote:
23 Jun 2018, 08:28
I don't think the Lord would have to question his actions...he is perfect.
Sounds sketchy. Did a prophet tell you that? :twisted:
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold
-Jesus

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