Kolob came up today

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SamBee
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by SamBee » 31 May 2018, 08:37

I'm not really convinced. An organization I was in had a Nazi collaborator in it for many years (long story). We didn't know until some historian exposed him just after his death. Some of the members went out of their way to apologize for his bad life choices, but I really couldn't do such a thing. They said it was partly pragmatic, not ideological since he was fighting against the other occupiers of his country. I said it was a bad choice, even if he had done some good things after the war, and showed little or no sign of being a racist. He doesn't - thank God - appear to have been involved in an atrocity, but he had enlisted as a non-German in the SS.

Our memberships of said organization overlapped, and I know many people who knew him, but I never actually met him, so I was not personally conflicted.

My line was that his WW2 actions had nothing to do with the organization as a whole or its aims and principles, or members such as myself who were born long after the war.... but that we should not bury or whitewash his actions.

I think the same applies here. People in the past have made some stupid choices. We don't need to continue them or justify them, even if those people had motoves they could justify to themselves.

"Race" here could be a crass word choice. Or an innocent one. It looks bad now, that's for sure. Especially in a day and age where people are triggered by far milder things.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by Curt Sunshine » 31 May 2018, 11:35

I agree with everything you just wrote, Sam.

I am just saying there is ZERO evidence the word meant race as we now define it to the author of the hymn when the song was written, while there is plenty of evidence it was used to mean "the" human race. The earliest missionary efforts made no distinction whatsoever.
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Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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dande48
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by dande48 » 31 May 2018, 12:30

Was W.W. Phelps, who wrote the song, a racist? Probably.
Did W.W. Phelps believe that race (by modern definition) is eternal and has no end? Probably.
Does the hymn contain a LOT of speculation, that may or may not be true? Absolutely.
Was the hymn more concerned with invoking the spirit through poetry and rhetoric, than objective truth? Absolutely.
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nibbler
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by nibbler » 31 May 2018, 13:36

There is no end to race
I keep coming back to this question. Which would people prefer, a message that we retain our race for eternity or a message that some will be assigned a different race at some point in the future/afterlife... as if one race were preferred over the others?

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On Own Now
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by On Own Now » 31 May 2018, 14:03

As old as I am, I didn't personally know WWPhelps. As dande pointed out, by today's standards he probably was a racist, as nearly all people were then. But for completeness, let me point out the following:

In July, 1833, WWP wrote an article in the Independence Missouri LDS paper, the Evening and Morning Star. In it, he acknowledged that free black people were probably going to come to Missouri as part of Mormonism, but that the Church would go the extra mile to adhere to the laws of Missouri in that respect. His words:
Slaves are real estate in this and other states, and wisdom would dictate great care among the branches of the church of Christ, on this subject. So long as we have no special rule in the church, as to people of color, let prudence guide; and while they, as well as we, are in the hands of a merciful God, we say: Shun every appearance of evil.
In the same edition, he later wrote about that the Church had no stand on slavery, but in the same paragraph hinted at the "wonderful events of this age" toward ending slavery.

This was the last edition of the paper printed in Independence. The press was destroyed a few days later because the Missourians didn't share what WWP had called in his article a "liberality of opinion" towards free black people. The destruction of the press is famous in Mormon history for the Lawrence girls steeling away with a stack of already-printed pages for the Book of Commandments. It wasn't polygamy that got this press destroyed by a mob, it was a reaction to the anti-racism of WWPhelps, and through him, the Church.

In the article, WWP never used the word 'race'.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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dande48
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by dande48 » 31 May 2018, 15:19

nibbler wrote:
31 May 2018, 13:36
..we retain our race for eternity or a message that some will be assigned a different race at some point in the future/afterlife... as if one race were preferred over the others?
It's funny to think this was doctrine, once upon a time.

Thanks for the historical context OON. I didn't know that about W.W. Phelps.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

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SamBee
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by SamBee » 01 Jun 2018, 06:43

dande48 wrote:
31 May 2018, 12:30
Was W.W. Phelps, who wrote the song, a racist? Probably.
Did W.W. Phelps believe that race (by modern definition) is eternal and has no end? Probably.
Does the hymn contain a LOT of speculation, that may or may not be true? Absolutely.
Was the hymn more concerned with invoking the spirit through poetry and rhetoric, than objective truth? Absolutely.
1 - Depends how you define it. By the strict definitions of today, maybe he was, but by his own time's standards probably not.

2 - Hard to say. I don't think the priesthood ban had much end in sight.

3 - He probably believed it all to be true.

4 - The verses "there is no end to..." always seemed to me an artistic cop out I'm afraid, as if he had padded out the work with these verses and lines. The first verses are poetry, the later ones seem like hackwork... although if he had written the entire hymn that way then it might work for me artistically.

I don't know anything about Phelps' life.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Heber13
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by Heber13 » 02 Jun 2018, 14:53

I've always took it as "human race" and there is no end to the eternal family.

We don't have problems thinking of the 12 tribes of Israel and our place in families that connect us together. I would think that is all we are talking about, ideas on how we might be organized, not literally race, although I tend to think we'll all look the same after the resurrection...only because I can't conceptually think of anything else.

Our society (justifiably) is hyper sensitive about race...I'll steer clear of that discussion, and stick to we are all a part of the human race, all a part of God's family, and there is no end to Eternal Families.

Here's an interesting part of the hymn...
There is no end to youth
What does that mean? Youth is defined as: "the period between childhood and adult age"...how can there be no end to that?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

nibbler
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by nibbler » 02 Jun 2018, 16:39

Heber13 wrote:
02 Jun 2018, 14:53
Here's an interesting part of the hymn...
There is no end to youth
What does that mean? Youth is defined as: "the period between childhood and adult age"...how can there be no end to that?
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SamBee
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by SamBee » 02 Jun 2018, 17:45

Heber13 wrote:
02 Jun 2018, 14:53

Here's an interesting part of the hymn...
There is no end to youth
What does that mean? Youth is defined as: "the period between childhood and adult age"...how can there be no end to that?
That we always stay fresh in the eternities and don't sag, bulge or lose our memories?
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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