Kolob came up today

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SamBee
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Kolob came up today

Post by SamBee » 27 May 2018, 08:40

We sang Hie to Kolob today, and as I was sitting in Gospel Principles, I heard a new member/investigator say it was "right over my head".

Cue one sister saying it was a star close to where HF lived.

I tried some damage control, and said it was an ultra-Mormon hymn... and contrasted it with hymns we share such as "Guide me oh thou great Jehovah" and "Nearer my God to thee".

I also said how the tune was adapted by Ralph Vaughan-Williams, the English/Welsh composer and how some lovely versions can be heard on Youtube.

But I really shied away from the rockier shores of Mornon theology. On another controversial note, it looks like the priesthood 40th will be unmarked in our ward - can't say I'm sorry.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Roadrunner
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by Roadrunner » 27 May 2018, 14:34

I think the doctrine about Kolob is basically made up and thankfully I've not heard discussion about it in years at church. I quite like the hymn however because it's musically interesting and the hymn message is actually quite nice in my opinion.

At BYU years ago I was taking organ lessons and a class requirement was to attend certain organ recitals. One measure of a skilled organist is the ability to look at a piece of music and improvise on the spot. The guest organist was given the music to If You Could hie to Kolob as the music he was to improvise. He studied the music for about 60 seconds, made the registration (sound) settings he desired and then started to play. The music he made was very lighthearted and even silly, as opposed to the somewhat heavy and ponderous music of our hymn. The audience gasped and a couple of people giggled. I will always remember that performance as a reminder that Kolob doctrine and music both should be taken with the grain of salt.

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SamBee
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by SamBee » 28 May 2018, 04:33

The tune is certainly an old and beauriful one and quite well known. "There is no end to race" leads into other uncomfortable doctrine...

But Kolob? I'm aware of the doctrine, and where it is found, but it's never been meaningful to me personally... it's where we verge into science fiction.

(It also appears - kind of - in Battlestar Galactica, but that's another matter.)
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Cnsl1
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by Cnsl1 » 29 May 2018, 01:43

"There is no end to race" ??

How did I miss that line all these years?

nibbler
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by nibbler » 29 May 2018, 07:24

I always took it to mean no end to (the human) race. Something to make it fit the meter and rhyme with "space."

The hymn says: Text: William W. Phelps, 1792–1872. Standard SM talk time. The Websters Dictionary from 1828 defines race as "The lineage of a family, or continued series of descendants from a parent who is called the stock. A race is the series of descendants indefinitely."

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SamBee
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by SamBee » 29 May 2018, 08:36

Cnsl1 wrote:
29 May 2018, 01:43
"There is no end to race" ??

How did I miss that line all these years?
It's always stuck out like a sore thumb to me.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by Curt Sunshine » 29 May 2018, 11:59

What nibbler said. Our angst about that phrase (written before the Priesthood ban and completely apart from it) is due to our modern use of the word rather than its meaning at the time.

Having said that, I would celebrate the hymn's removal from the hymnbook - or, at the very least, dropping that verse. Once a hymn or ritual or teaching loses relevance, there is no need to keep it.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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On Own Now
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by On Own Now » 30 May 2018, 08:59

From a long-ago thread:
On Own Now wrote:
17 May 2014, 20:44
Kolob, even in the BofA is nothing more than a symbol of Christ and the stars symbolic of the Noble and Great Ones.

Chap 3:
2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; 3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all ...
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good... 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God ...
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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SamBee
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by SamBee » 30 May 2018, 10:42

Curt Sunshine wrote:
29 May 2018, 11:59
What nibbler said. Our angst about that phrase (written before the Priesthood ban and completely apart from it) is due to our modern use of the word rather than its meaning at the time.

Having said that, I would celebrate the hymn's removal from the hymnbook - or, at the very least, dropping that verse. Once a hymn or ritual or teaching loses relevance, there is no need to keep it.
I'm not sure about that at all. Yes, we did use "race" in the sense of tribe or family, but we also have used it in the modern sense going way back into the 19th century.
On Own Now wrote: ↑17 May 2014, 20:44
Kolob, even in the BofA is nothing more than a symbol of Christ and the stars symbolic of the Noble and Great Ones.
Kokob means "star" in Hebrew, and I suspect Kolob is little more than a variant of that.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Kolob came up today

Post by Curt Sunshine » 30 May 2018, 14:47

Yea, Sam, we used the modern meaning in the 19th Century, but when the song was written the common meaning was what nibbler shared. It changed in the Church when the ban was being considered and then instituted.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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