Hagoth and the Nephites that went with him

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adrift
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Hagoth and the Nephites that went with him

Post by adrift » 25 Mar 2018, 06:18

Now that I've lost my testimony, the questions I've never had answered and had to shelf are coming back up.

So Hagoth took a lot of Nephites and two ships and we are taught that they populated the islands of the sea. That's cool but what happened to all of the Nephites in the group? Did the Lamanites in his group also become wicked and they had mini great and last battles on all of the islands in which they killed their Nephites, as well? We know from the BoM that when the Lamanites were righteous their skin got lighter so they would have had to all become wicked. As far as I know, when new lands have been discovered the people have been indigenous, not white like Nephites.

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dande48
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Re: Hagoth and the Nephites that went with him

Post by dande48 » 25 Mar 2018, 08:18

After Christ visitied the Nephites, the BOM said the lamanited became white, and there were no more "-ites" among them. So I assume that Nephi misunderstood his own prophecy, or that "Lamanite" was a just a term for "the bad guys", or that "Nephite" and "Lamanite" represented a particular ideology rather than a bloodline. Those who left with Hagoth probably identified themselves as Hagothites (or the Maori) more than Nephites.
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DarkJedi
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Re: Hagoth and the Nephites that went with him

Post by DarkJedi » 25 Mar 2018, 15:42

I hesitate to say this because I thinks it's who-ha, but the view of some is that those who went to the islands are the modern day Polynesians. However, those same people will teach that the Polynesians are Lamanites, so your question is good (and that also contributes to why I think it's who-ha).

There is a mildly interesting article about it here: https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormo ... ynesians-0

It's one of those things I don't worry about because it has nothing to do with my own salvation.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Re: Hagoth and the Nephites that went with him

Post by Curt Sunshine » 25 Mar 2018, 16:37

Intermarriage changes skin color quite quickly and over generations, so the race question is a non-issue - except for the ancient and (I believe) completely cultural, inaccurate application of a curse to explain what happened to a people who intermarried with an indigenous people and naturally became darker skinned. That is crystal clear to me, based on the population demographics stated in the book itself.

The Book of Mormon deals ONLY with the people who lived in the areas it describes directly.

If it is historically accurate, we have absolutely no idea where Hagoth and his people ended up and what happened to them; if it is not historically accurate, all we need to do is find "the moral of the story" and not worry about it.

So, either way, it doesn't matter - to us or to the accuracy or inaccuracy of the book itself. It literally has no impact one way or the other.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Hagoth and the Nephites that went with him

Post by DarkJedi » 25 Mar 2018, 16:54

On the topic of skin color, there's a very interesting set of articles in this month's National Geographic. Of course I can't link the whole thing for several reasons, but the one anyone can read is good: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/maga ... ce-africa/ (Your library likely has the magazine.)

BTW, it appears to have nothing to do with righteousness or being "delightsome."
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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adrift
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Re: Hagoth and the Nephites that went with him

Post by adrift » 25 Mar 2018, 17:10

Maybe because it's still so raw for me but it DOES matter if it isn't historically accurate because it's been sold as such. It does matter to me, at least. If I can't trust that then what else can't I trust?

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dande48
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Re: Hagoth and the Nephites that went with him

Post by dande48 » 25 Mar 2018, 20:57

adrift wrote:
25 Mar 2018, 17:10
Maybe because it's still so raw for me but it DOES matter if it isn't historically accurate because it's been sold as such. It does matter to me, at least. If I can't trust that then what else can't I trust?
I heard a quote, which may or may not have been from economist John Maynard Keynes, which went, "When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?" People are forced all the time to act with very little (and often inaccurate) information. We have been told, and also will tell many things which are false, and many more which are not enitrely true. But I think the Church leaders (for the most part) truly believe what they claim to be fact. What matters is being willing to admit you were wrong and change your mind when better information presents itself. And while the Church has a hard time admiting it, I think for the most part they are willing to (eventually) adjust their views accordingly.

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"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
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DarkJedi
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Re: Hagoth and the Nephites that went with him

Post by DarkJedi » 25 Mar 2018, 21:10

adrift wrote:
25 Mar 2018, 17:10
Maybe because it's still so raw for me but it DOES matter if it isn't historically accurate because it's been sold as such. It does matter to me, at least. If I can't trust that then what else can't I trust?
I didn't mean to imply it doesn't matter to you. Just because it doesn't matter to me doesn't mean it doesn't matter to you. I don't view the BoM as literal (or anywhere close to literal) and thus not historical, and I view very little of what anyone says as doctrine - including GA's even at the very highest level. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is very simple. The church and many members of the church tend to try to complicate it.

I love this talk https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ ... h?lang=eng and specifically this quote, although there are many gems (including channeling Obi Wan)
Part of the reason for poor judgment comes from the tendency of mankind to blur the line between belief and truth. We too often confuse belief with truth, thinking that because something makes sense or is convenient, it must be true. Conversely, we sometimes don’t believe truth or reject it—because it would require us to change or admit that we were wrong. Often, truth is rejected because it doesn’t appear to be consistent with previous experiences.
Hence, Hagoth sailed away with a bunch of people never to be heard from. There are people living on islands of the seas with no explanation of how they got there except their own legends which seem to fit the story of Hagoth. Makes sense to me that these are Hagoth's people. Therefore it must be true. "I know the Polynesians are the people of Hagoth."
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

adrift
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Re: Hagoth and the Nephites that went with him

Post by adrift » 26 Mar 2018, 03:39

Totally. Looking back, I can see my bias regarding the BoM, history, and evidence. It was easy to see things that seemed to prove or strengthen the case for it all while completely ignoring facts and evidence to the contrary.

I just need to figure out where to put everything.

Roy
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Re: Hagoth and the Nephites that went with him

Post by Roy » 26 Mar 2018, 08:23

I understand the allure of the BoM. IF it is true THEN God really does perform miracles, send angels, and guide his prophets. It is tangible proof of the divinity of the work. It is a relic - Something that an investigator can hold in their hands and pray to know if it is real.

Regardless of the historicity of the BoM - I find it to be a very Christian work. It hyper-emphasizes Jesus and his central role. The BoM thus achieves its own mission - to become another testament that Jesus is the Christ.
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