Jacob and Esau

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
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SamBee
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Re: Jacob and Esau

Post by SamBee » 14 Mar 2018, 19:37

Well it does happen in real life - Donald Trump's older brother fell by the wayside and King George managed to replace his older brother Edward, who was probably a Nazi sympathiser.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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DarkJedi
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Re: Jacob and Esau

Post by DarkJedi » 15 Mar 2018, 05:21

Curt Sunshine wrote:
14 Mar 2018, 17:56
Nephi also was a prick as a brother, but he got to dictate the narrative (looking at the BofM from an orthodox viewpoint). Without Second Nephi 4, he would come across as a completely self-righteous jerk.

Such is life.
Very interesting point. I wonder what a Book of Laman or Book of Lemuel or Book of Sam might read like?
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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dande48
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Re: Jacob and Esau

Post by dande48 » 15 Mar 2018, 06:57

DarkJedi wrote:
15 Mar 2018, 05:21
Very interesting point. I wonder what a Book of Laman or Book of Lemuel or Book of Sam might read like?
The Book of Laman

Chapter 18:
"We've finally set up for ourselves a pretty good life here in the valley. It's been tough; we're still camping. But now Nephi's talking about how God told him in a dream to build a boat and sail to who-knows-where. I don't see why we have to pack up and move AGAIN. Nephi keeps acting like he's in charge, even when father's still around. I spoke with Lemuel, and we both agreed we needed to tell Nephi how it is. And Nephi FA-REAKED. He said if we touched him, he'd kill us. He looked like he meant it to. He knows I've got no qualms about tying him up for a bit, to let him simmer down (I think he's still bitter about last time). But as psycho as he is, I don't want this to turn into a blood feud. He is my brother, after all."

Chapter 20:
"We've been stuck on this boat for DAYS... no land in site. I think we're gonna die. Lemuel cracked out the wine last night. We figure, if we're going to die, we'd better enjoy life while we still can. And do you know how our little prick of a brother, Nephi, responded? Complained we were too loud. I swear, if he keeps this up, I'm going to tie him to the mast."
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

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SamBee
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Re: Jacob and Esau

Post by SamBee » 15 Mar 2018, 08:27

Laman
"We've discovered this nice new country. Not another person in sight. We built a town real quick and the hunting's good. We're all having so many kids. My wives keep giving birth to triplets.

"I set out my vision for a beachfront casino and bar before the council to help develop the area. But Nephi and my parents spent their time filibustering about building five new temples. I keep telling Nephi that I've got way more life experience than him. I spent years running a resort near Jerusalem while he was still in school."

Lemuel
"Am sick of being lumped in with Laman all the time. I've got a mind of my own you know? But Nephi can be really dumb some times, and I have to take Laman's side. All I want to do is have some fun."

Sam
"Managed to document 200 new species of plant the other day. Trying to work out which ones we can cultivate. Nephi's been trying out some of the local 'shrooms, been getting visions. Amazing animals here too, but don't know what to call them. Only got round to naming the cureloms.

"I wish my brothers would stop fighting. How am I supposed to conduct scientific research with all these wars going on round my lab? Nobody ever thanks me for all I do."
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Beefster
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Re: Jacob and Esau

Post by Beefster » 25 Apr 2018, 22:32

Those are hilarious renditions.

I think all of the "bad guys" of the OT and BoM aren't as bad as the good guys make them out to be. The "righteous" tend to simply be ignorant of their own flaws.

I didn't really sink my teeth into the OT until my mission and I gotta tell you, this was one of those things that was a total headscratcher. There were a lot of cases where prophets and such would do unethical things like lie for a birthright in this case. Or commit genocide. The OT is extraordinarily troubling- so much that it makes up the overwhelming majority of fuel for biblical critics. Genesis also reads a bit like a myth. It was my first literal belief to go as a result. Life is much simpler when the flood didn't happen literally. The logistics of the Ark are impossible and there is strong evidence against a global flood, never mind the implications of genocide.
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Re: Jacob and Esau

Post by Curt Sunshine » 26 Apr 2018, 14:56

Oh, and I taught the Gospel Dotrine class when it was these chapters. I started by outlining the succession stories and graphing the horrible consequences of the deceit that have lasted into our own modern times. I told everyone I was putting on my history teacher hat for a bit, and it was well-received.
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Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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SamBee
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Re: Jacob and Esau

Post by SamBee » 06 May 2018, 09:23

Beefster wrote:
25 Apr 2018, 22:32
I think all of the "bad guys" of the OT and BoM aren't as bad as the good guys make them out to be. The "righteous" tend to simply be ignorant of their own flaws.
There is an interesting bit in the BoM where the Lamanites complain how they have been diddled out of their birthright (much like Esau). In terms of the story, it is an interesting aside.

Look at the New Testament as well.... even characters such as Judas, some of the Pharisees, Pontius Pilate etc are not completely one sided.

One could argue that Judas - for example -
* helped fulfil the plan, much like Adam.
* thought that the act might stir Jesus to action against the authorities.
* thought that Jesus might free the Jews (from other evidences such as his name - Judas -> Jew, Iscariot -> Sicarii (a revolutionary organization).
* was himself conned and regretted his act, which drove him to suicide in despair.

Judas is not a cardboard cut out villain. Which funnily enough makes that aspect of the Gospel look realistic.

Pontius Pilate, a big brute of a soldier is so moved by Jesus that he tries to get him let off, because he thinks he is not a criminal, and doesn't deserve this.

The Sanhedrin think that Jesus a) undermines their God-given authority, b) is causing Jews to leave the Torah/Law, c) may be a sorcerer and d) threatens the fragile peace with the Romans, which could bring death ro their communities (which happened a few decades later).
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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