Equal Access to Blessings of Priesthood

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DancingCarrot
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Equal Access to Blessings of Priesthood

Post by DancingCarrot »

Today's lesson in RS is one that I'm not known for liking, but I also have additional questions. It was chapter 15 in the GBH manual, The Holy Priesthood. Much to the lesson's and my RS group's credit, we spent some time distinguishing the men from the priesthood. However, I still don't understand the notion that thought women aren't authorized or allowed to administer things via the priesthood, that we have equal access to its power by us keeping our covenants. Perhaps it's the history of the phrase "equal access" that irks me because that has not historically been true, akin to "separate, but equal." I don't doubt powers beyond ourselves and what we know, but I also think humans have unnecessarily created a hurdle by piece-meal-ing priesthood keys.

I didn't have a coherent way to organize my thoughts at church, and I also thought they were mostly inappropriate for the setting so I wanted to bring them here.

P.S. We read D&C 25 for some reason, but it didn't ring as remotely divinely inspired to me at all. I question its place as scripture and its appropriateness in the lesson.
It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. -Dumbledore

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Roy
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Re: Equal Access to Blessings of Priesthood

Post by Roy »

My initial reaction is that the "blessings of priesthood" are the same things as priesthood ordinances. However we teach that ordination to the priesthood is a required and saving ordinance for men ... so ... equal access to all the blessing but one. :think:
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Beefster
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Re: Equal Access to Blessings of Priesthood

Post by Beefster »

The priesthood is the power that holds the church together through ordinances. These blessings are available to everyone, not just those who officiate in them. The priesthood itself is not a blessing of the priesthood. It's just the priesthood. It's a tool for bringing salvation.

We really don't know why women do not have the priesthood, and I really can understand where some women are coming from when they feel less important than men because they don't have the priesthood.

I'm sure you've heard the idea that men are given the priesthood to bring them on equal grounds with women, but that is misandry and so I reject that notion. (I recognize it can be seen as, and often is seen as, misogyny, particularly if you take a "priesthood by default" point of view)

I would say that the temple evens the playing field due to women officiating in ordinances there, but that still fails to address the differences in wording and ceremonial wear that have always bothered me a little. Women seem like second class citizens there, where nearly all their blessings are captured in a "to your husbands" clause. And Eve never says a word outside the Garden of Eden... And she's the only woman. It makes it seem as if women need to be escorted everywhere by their husbands. It still bothers me, and it would probably bother me more if I were a woman. I try not to let it get in the way of anything else, but it's always there waiting to be resolved.

But the thing is, I really don't believe that's God's intended message. I wouldn't hold my breath for any of the presentation to change. Still, I know that God isn't that hair-splittingly petty. I know He loves women dearly. I know God isn't sexist, misogynistic, or misandristic. That would be against his nature. I don't know why the wording is the way it is. I don't know why women are presented in a way that can suggest they are second-class citizens in God's Kingdom. I don't have any clue why women are not given the priesthood. But I do know that God loves us, and I'm just going to have to let that be enough, despite not being anywhere close to intellectually satisfied.
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nibbler
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Re: Equal Access to Blessings of Priesthood

Post by nibbler »

Beefster wrote: 13 Aug 2017, 14:57 I'm sure you've heard the idea that men are given the priesthood to bring them on equal grounds with women, but that is misandry and so I reject that notion. (I recognize it can be seen as, and often is seen as, misogyny, particularly if you take a "priesthood by default" point of view)
An alternative to the misandry interpretation...

When I hear someone say that men need the priesthood to help them be as good as women already are it's usually a man being self deprecating and it's usually said tongue-in-cheek. In my mind it's less a valid reason and more a lame apologetic to placate women that feel they aren't on equal ground.
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DancingCarrot
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Re: Equal Access to Blessings of Priesthood

Post by DancingCarrot »

nibbler wrote: 13 Aug 2017, 16:17 When I hear someone say that men need the priesthood to help them be as good as women already are it's usually a man being self deprecating and it's usually said tongue-in-cheek. In my mind it's less a valid reason and more a lame apologetic to placate women that feel they aren't on equal ground.

Yeah, I'm not sure that the answer is Playing the Pedestal: taking turns to place each gender above the other and the various instruments of church help even out the difference. The most thought out response to men needing the priesthood because women already have it I've heard is that women, by virtue of their bodies, are born with the potential capability of physical covenants: being born of literal water and blood - Aaronic priesthood being able to baptize to be born of figurative water and (Christ's) blood, in addition to women shepherding souls to this life, and MP holders shepherding souls to the next life via covenants. I don't like the connection to women's bodies, though, because it seems to always come back to that in some way for women. Also, what about women who genuinely don't want or can't have kids? Does that mean men get off the hook on not needing to have the priesthood?
Beefster wrote: 13 Aug 2017, 14:57 The priesthood is the power that holds the church together through ordinances. These blessings are available to everyone, not just those who officiate in them. The priesthood itself is not a blessing of the priesthood. It's just the priesthood. It's a tool for bringing salvation.

We really don't know why women do not have the priesthood, and I really can understand where some women are coming from when they feel less important than men because they don't have the priesthood.
It's also not simply feeling left out because of not having the priesthood. It's being kept out of certain positions that have administrative and decision-making duties due to those position's ties to priesthood offices. SS presidency and any of the clerk positions for bishopric and SP seems like a no-brainer to let women into, even without priesthood ordination. As far as I know, having either of the priesthoods is not a pre-requisite for those positions, with the possible exception being the SS president, but even that could have some wiggle room.
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Beefster
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Re: Equal Access to Blessings of Priesthood

Post by Beefster »

That is an odd one. I would think that Sunday School would be able to have co-ed leadership since the teaching roles are co-ed. Opening this up to women would really help out small branches who are already hurting for priesthood.

As for clerks, I think they might need to be priesthood holders since they handle tithing, membership, and finalize details on ordinances... Then again, one of the office senior sisters on my mission was in charge of recording baptisms, so you probably still don't need priesthood there. Tithing is probably the bigger issue, so you'd probably have to keep the priesthood requirement for at least the financial clerk. Then again, you can pay it online to a genderless non-priesthood-holding server, so maybe it's irrelevant there too.

I would also like to see the young women be greeters and maybe even bring bread for the sacrament. Nowhere is it required that the bread be baked, purchased, or brought in by a priesthood holder. They'd probably be more consistent about bringing it anyway. :lol: (When I was a teacher, we assigned a main bread bringer and a backup bread bringer. Sometimes both would forget to bring bread.)

Women already sometimes participate in home teaching, particularly when worthy priesthood holders are sparse. They go with their husbands, typically, though in one singles ward I served in as a missionary, the bishop was considering fudging the rules by pairing up "almost married" couples that were either engaged or de-facto engaged. That's what you have to do when the ward is a membership record black hole from YSA's going inactive.
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DancingCarrot
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Re: Equal Access to Blessings of Priesthood

Post by DancingCarrot »

Beefster wrote: 13 Aug 2017, 18:51 That is an odd one. I would think that Sunday School would be able to have co-ed leadership since the teaching roles are co-ed. Opening this up to women would really help out small branches who are already hurting for priesthood.

As for clerks, I think they might need to be priesthood holders since they handle tithing, membership, and finalize details on ordinances... Then again, one of the office senior sisters on my mission was in charge of recording baptisms, so you probably still don't need priesthood there. Tithing is probably the bigger issue, so you'd probably have to keep the priesthood requirement for at least the financial clerk. Then again, you can pay it online to a genderless non-priesthood-holding server, so maybe it's irrelevant there too.
First, I don't want women to be seen as fillers for men. I'm not a second choice. Women aren't here to be helpers for when there's not enough men.

Second, clerks don't administer ordinances in any way, therefore that position could be open to women regardless of priesthood ordination. Also, handling tithes has nothing to do with priesthood, as far as I can see. Plenty of women are accountants, so I don't see why women can't be lay persons in regards to counting and recording tithes. Again, no ordinances being administered, especially not on a one-on-one basis. From what I can tell, it's mostly tradition that's keeping those solely as positions for men.

Third, I know there are at least a few people on here who believe that young women should be able to pass the sacrament. The blessing of the sacrament could still be handled by the young men (or men, depending on the ward demographics), but that there's no basis for having just the male folk pass it to people. Women pass it down the row after they've partaken, it's not much difference to walk around to do that for the whole congregation.

Fourth, like you mentioned earlier, women already administer ordinances in the temple. They stand on their own merit, without a second pass from a man later on. We already practice women administering ordinances, but I'm not sure we fully realize that's what we're doing.
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gospeltangents
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Re: Equal Access to Blessings of Priesthood

Post by gospeltangents »

Also, handling tithes has nothing to do with priesthood, as far as I can see.
I have interviewed some people from the Remnant Church and RLDS Church, and their office of bishop is to ONLY handle tithes/offerings. Having had these conversations, it has given me a new understanding of bishop and I do believe that it has to do with priesthood. In my interview with Jim Vun Cannon, he mentioned that their presiding Bishop is a Literal Descendant of Aaron. (I had never heard of that before!) At any rate, the office of Bishop can choose to serve without counselors if he wants and is the President of the Aaronic Priesthood. If you're interested, the conversation is at https://gospeltangents.com/2017/07/27/f ... ant-aaron/

Later this week we will talk specifically about Tithing and Consecration. In that interview, the bishop is tasked with making sure the financial needs of the ward(s) are met. The bishop and pastor are 2 completely separate roles, unlike in the LDS Church. I attended a Community of Christ service a few weeks ago, and the meeting was conducted by the male Pastor, but he turned over some time to the female Bishop. Apparently the bishop is in charge of finances, and she asked for a collection plate to be passed around where people could put in an envelope and choose whether their offerings went to local ministry or worldwide ministry. The Remnant Church has a similar sounding process, and I'll post that link later this week when the interview is ready if you're interested.

The idea to separate the Bishop from the Pastor makes it very clear that the Bishop is a priesthood role, and very tied to finances. I can see why in the LDS Church, with the bishop and pastor roles combined, we might lose sight of that distinction (as well as the fact that Aaronic Priesthood are adults in the RLDS Church, rather than youth), but that is also the reason that deacons collect fast offerings--it is specifically a role of the Aaronic Priesthood to provide for the temporal needs of ward members. It's been really fun to see the differences between Remnant, RLDS, and LDS Churches over the last few weeks and it has given me a new understanding about a role of a bishop. Perhaps we should split the role as RLDS Church does.
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Beefster
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Re: Equal Access to Blessings of Priesthood

Post by Beefster »

DancingCarrot, Don't get me wrong. I see what you're saying; I'm just not sure either of us here know why things stay the way they do. Surely some of it is tradition, but some might actually be legitimate, and frankly I don't know which is which. As much as I'd like to see more meaningful female involvement, I'm not the one making the policies here, so I'm cautious in the way I approach things. I tend to err on the side of assuming things won't change, though not being surprised if and when they do.

Priesthood officiating is a bit more than just ordinances (particularly with the Aaronic Priesthood), so I can see why some positions stick as priesthood-only and priesthood-preferred. But I believe you are entitled to your own opinion and I'm probably not helping you resolve things by my comments. I think I'll just stay out of this topic from now on. I tend to side more on the orthodox side on this despite some of the asymmetry that bothers me. I just trust that things will work out somehow and that one day things will be resolved for me.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Sometimes our journeys take us to unexpected places. That is a truly beautiful thing.
DancingCarrot
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Re: Equal Access to Blessings of Priesthood

Post by DancingCarrot »

GT, those are fascinating finds from the CoC and RLDS church. Separating a bishop from a pastor is an idea I hadn't heard of before. It sounds like with the RLDS church having women bishops, though, that they view women and priesthood differently. To me it sounds like the pastor would be a priesthood holder, as a spiritual shepherd of the group. You mentioned the Aaronic priesthood as ensuring temporal needs being met for the ward, I had never heard that. Especially since in my city fast offerings are not collected at members' homes (logistically not feasible). But, it's also been my understanding that tithes are not to be given/collected by anyone other than a bishopric member, so I don't see the clear delineation there.

Beefster, no need to not participate if you still want to. I have a very straightforward writing style and it probably made me come across as more hardline than I intended. Me apologies. Also, it's worth noting that it's easy to stay out of a situation when you have the regular opportunity to be included in the situation (the priesthood). I'm not saying that the priesthood is something that is able to be changed, whether by divine design or by people, but it's frustrating to ask why half the ward isn't able to contribute and participate in some ways and to have the answer be: we're not sure but we know it's supposed to be this way! It's simply frustrating to me. I don't have understanding, the places I turn to for understanding don't have anything satisfactory. I don't expect things to change much in this arena either, but it's a difficult thing for me to interact with and it seems like other people are able to get a testimony of it.

Last note, one woman in RS did comment on how she grew up in a household that was 4 generation of women. I don't know why no husbands, but no husbands. She said it discouraged her when she was younger that her home wasn't able to have a priesthood holder. She said she came to realize that her house had priesthood power, despite whatever authority or keys were absent. That power is power and we all have access to use it, regardless of administrative authority. It was one of my favorite comments.


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It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. -Dumbledore

Roll away your stone, I'll roll away mine. Together we can see what we will find. -Mumford & Sons
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