No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

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SilentDawning
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by SilentDawning » 05 Apr 2017, 05:43

Wow, compared with the rest of the world, I guess I'm elite because I am currently endowed without a TR -- the only people in the world that can beat that are the fractional people who are endowed WITH TR's!!!
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

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Heber13
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by Heber13 » 05 Apr 2017, 08:22

And even a smaller percentage of those, SD, are Eagle scouts, and 33rd level Master Masons, within the inner circle of the inner workings of the highest levels of the temple to receive promises of the highest degree of the highest kingdom of heaven. If you're into that kinda thing...there are promises that you are special and peculiar from the world. ;)
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by Ray DeGraw » 05 Apr 2017, 09:51

No, I don't believe that. My view of eternal progression is much more expansive than that.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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bridget_night
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by bridget_night » 05 Apr 2017, 13:55

Last year my brother (a TBM) called me to talk about our leaving the lds church (but not officially taken our names off the records). It really bugged me when he said that, I would not have my marriage for eternity, because of leaving the church. What he said was very manipulative. I told him that we know longer believed in the lds church and temple ceremonies to be from God and that God would not condemn us or our marriage if we thought something was false. I told my brother we had not taken our names off the church records and that if God ever told us to come back to the lds church, we would. That seemed to appease him. So many members believe that no one but those sealed in the temple will have their marriages for eternity. Jesus always taught the spirit of the law vs the letter of the law, so I go by that.

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dande48
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by dande48 » 05 Apr 2017, 19:45

bridget_night wrote:
05 Apr 2017, 13:55
Last year my brother (a TBM) called me to talk about our leaving the lds church (but not officially taken our names off the records). It really bugged me when he said that, I would not have my marriage for eternity, because of leaving the church. What he said was very manipulative. I told him that we know longer believed in the lds church and temple ceremonies to be from God and that God would not condemn us or our marriage if we thought something was false. I told my brother we had not taken our names off the church records and that if God ever told us to come back to the lds church, we would. That seemed to appease him. So many members believe that no one but those sealed in the temple will have their marriages for eternity. Jesus always taught the spirit of the law vs the letter of the law, so I go by that.
D&C 132:26 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation;"

If anyone holds to a literal interpretation of LDS doctrine, you are ALL SET! You were sealed in the temple. Exaltation? BAM! Godhood? BAM! Just don't murder anyone, and it's all yours. That is literally what it says, in the scriptures, solid doctrine! Of course, people try to explain this away. But they've got to take some pretty strong liberties in their recontruction.

There's nothing in there that says you lose your sealing, if you follow your honest consience in leaving the Church. I'm in the same boat; as soon as God gives the word, I will follow the Church to the very end. I think the Heavenly Father, as taught by the LDS church, would understand.

Many of us have been TBM at one point or another. I know I have. I would've reacted the same was as he did. Don't hold it against him. He doesn't understand.

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SilentDawning
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by SilentDawning » 08 Apr 2017, 17:22

I think you have to take the scriptures as a whole. There are a lot of BoM scriptures that talk about enduring to the end. I they need to be mined to see if they apply to exhaltation. This scripture seems to fly in the face of everything we hear at church. Is it possible everyone's misguided?
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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DarkJedi
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by DarkJedi » 08 Apr 2017, 21:02

SilentDawning wrote:
08 Apr 2017, 17:22
I think you have to take the scriptures as a whole. There are a lot of BoM scriptures that talk about enduring to the end. I they need to be mined to see if they apply to exhaltation. This scripture seems to fly in the face of everything we hear at church. Is it possible everyone's misguided?
I have wondered about this myself, SD. I have endurance/endure to the end on my list of future study topics. Part of my question is what exactly is endurance or what does endurance mean? Have I failed to endure to the end because of my inactive period? There is a member in a neighboring ward who was inactive for 30 years. He married a nonmember, went inactive and raised his children in a secular world. I don't believe they attended any church. Now in their sixties and thirty years on his wife meets the missionaries and converts but he does not immediately return. Eventually he does return and they are sealed in the temple and they both serve in weighty callings. Did he endure or is that what he's doing now? Is that what the parable of the workers is about?

This is probably just me, but I often feel "judged" by others who have always been active when they bring up enduring to the end and seemingly pridefully testify about how they have endured (sometimes despite doubts, etc.). I feel like saying "Hey, I can hear you! I'm sitting right here." My ward knows my history. So, what role does the atonement play in endurance? My guess is probably more than they understand. (Side note, these are the same people who dismiss grace and are absolutely convinced we are saved by works.)
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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dande48
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by dande48 » 08 Apr 2017, 22:07

SilentDawning wrote:
08 Apr 2017, 17:22
I think you have to take the scriptures as a whole. There are a lot of BoM scriptures that talk about enduring to the end. I they need to be mined to see if they apply to exhaltation. This scripture seems to fly in the face of everything we hear at church. Is it possible everyone's misguided?
It does, which is why I picked it. :) It seems to go strictly against what is most commonly taught. A big "NU-UH!" to anyone who tries to condemn us.

I think reality is much more complicated. If this life is merely a spec in the eternities (as is also commonly taught), and the end goal is to become an all-powerful, omnipotent being who will create worlds without end... I'm sure there is an obscene amount of "personal progress" that goes on after this life before we reach the end goal. The atonement allows us to "repent" of our sins, turn from them, and become a little more like Christ. And in the scriptures, the atonement still has very much the same effect after this life.

Truthfully, I'm not sure many (if any) have the slightest clue as to what is going on in this life. Think of the post-apostacy, pre-restoration period. What if the entire world has always been in a post-apostacy, pre-restoration state? As there is a God in Heaven, and an eternal destiny for all of mankind, I think Heavenly Father must see great value in "bumbling around" and "trying to figure things out on our own". I feel pretty confident this life isn't about absolute answers. And if so, would God really hold it against us if we changed our beliefs and our lifestyles, when confronted with what we judge to be better information? And if we mis-judge, not out of rebellion, but our lack of understanding, will he hold it against us?

amateurparent
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by amateurparent » 08 Apr 2017, 22:36

The arguement has been made that early JS polygamy was all about sealing people together. Families were sealed, couples were sealed, friends were sealed. Sealing became almost like a fraternity.. There is recorded arguing over who got to be the patriarchal figure in sealings. It looked more like Team Jacob vs Team Sparkle

It is impossible for me to hear about the early sealings, the sealings that were done in the endowment houses rather than temples, the presence of non-members in those events, and then turn around and take the current sealings as more serious and sacred than they were in the primitive church.

The church has formalized many things and made sealings into a more sacred element. That doesn't mean God had anything to do with it.

I do believe that God smiles when we align ourselves with one another and make promises that represent love, kindness, and responsibility. I also think he is okay with us shifting alliances. Maybe the church will eventually catch up.
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.

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Reuben
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by Reuben » 09 Apr 2017, 02:48

amateurparent wrote:
08 Apr 2017, 22:36
It is impossible for me to hear about the early sealings, the sealings that were done in the endowment houses rather than temples, the presence of non-members in those events, and then turn around and take the current sealings as more serious and sacred than they were in the primitive church.
Just when I thought I had heard everything...

Does something that gets you to feverishly study yet another aspect of church history count as a "trigger"? ;)
amateurparent wrote:
08 Apr 2017, 22:36
The church has formalized many things and made sealings into a more sacred element. That doesn't mean God had anything to do with it.
I present Exhibit B in support of this statement: when Joseph introduced the endowment and sealing, he wasn't worthy of a temple recommend using today's criteria.
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Love before dogma. Truth before loyalty. Knowledge before sanctity or certainty.

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