No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

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Holy Cow
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by Holy Cow » 04 Apr 2017, 10:20

I absolutely do NOT believe that temple ordinances are necessary for eternal families. This is, and has always been, one of my biggest issues with the church. Even as a teenager, before going to the temple, I didn't understand why God would require us to be sealed in a temple to have an eternal family. I thought it would all be explained in the temple. After going through the temple, endowed and sealed, I found that it really didn't answer that question. I just can't believe that a loving God would base something as important as eternal families on an ordinance that very few people on the earth actually have access to. I agree with others that we don't know how things are going to happen in the afterlife. I don't like the way 'celestial marriage' started out from the very beginning, and I don't like the way it puts a carrot on temple marriage now. The whole thing feels manipulative to me.
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Heber13
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by Heber13 » 04 Apr 2017, 10:35

Minyan Man wrote:
04 Apr 2017, 09:14
I try not to complicate the teaching & doctrines of the church. We really don't know for certain what lies in eternity. There are many possibilities.
Ann wrote:
04 Apr 2017, 08:50
I think my nuclear family is just as together on the other side as my neighbor's. They don't need another sealing; their love is it. It endured.
nibbler wrote:
04 Apr 2017, 08:38
I believe more and more religious people outside the church are starting to view eternal families as the default. There's no ordinance hurdle to having an eternal family (other than perhaps the civil marriage) and that's just the way it is..... "What's going to keep us apart?"
LookingHard wrote:
04 Apr 2017, 08:38
"Oh God will sort it all out in the end"
I agree with all these points...it seems logical. And I think most members of other faiths I talk to also think this way because it is logical. Where we claim to have this all important teaching and temple...others are kinda shrugging their shoulders about it...they mostly believe it too...just don't really have a specific teaching or ordinance for it because it is assumed God is great enough to make the eternities wonderful beyond our imaginations.
LookingHard wrote:
04 Apr 2017, 08:38
Saying that just weakens the doctrine of sealing to be rather insignificant.
...and I think that is where the conversation can go. Because if it weakens it, if God works it all out, if it will all be amazing with our without temple sealings...what is the point? That can weaken the church's claims to some people.

But...as I said...I think there is value to the temple ordinances.
DarkJedi wrote:
04 Apr 2017, 09:40
I don't think the ordinances themselves are anything more than symbolic and mostly for our benefit.
This is where I land to also. With faith, they become important to us. With faith, you can leave all the other families and their situations up to God to work out, and not have to make sense of it all. I can just go t the temple, see the symbolic meaning of the eternal family as we understand families now, and project our hopes and promises to good things about my spouse and all my kids all wanting to be together forever, enough to sacrifice for that idea. And there can be great power in it.

God will sort it all out.

I think it just can be problematic for some people if it is all taken too literally, which requires a lot of explaining. And it is simpler to just have faith in the symbolism, and draw from that without giving up on it as if nothing matters at all.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Heber13
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by Heber13 » 04 Apr 2017, 10:46

Holy Cow wrote:
04 Apr 2017, 10:20
I just can't believe that a loving God would base something as important as eternal families on an ordinance that very few people on the earth actually have access to.
That was the exact thinking with baptisms for the dead, right? It doesn't feel right that only some get the benefits...so...we have a perfect lovingly Father in Heaven who makes a way for all who are worthy of it to have access to every blessing they deserve.

And so it is with eternal marriage. We can do the ordinances as proxy for others. So...all get the chance, there is a way for all to have it.

Does it seem reasonable that God would say..."well...you COULD have had temple sealings, you lived in the world during the time it was restored and had access...but you chose not to...so...out you go. You will be a single non-gender person for eternity. You chose unwisely." ??? :problem:
Holy Cow wrote:
04 Apr 2017, 10:20
I don't like the way it puts a carrot on temple marriage now. The whole thing feels manipulative to me.
This is the thing I think about. It does seem very much a motivator, especially for youth to stay moral and to seek after these things with literal presentations of the teachings.

I was motivated by it. I thought I lived the gospel as I was taught. Somehow, it wasn't enough to protect my family from the evil one who tries to destroy families. When I discussed that with a SP...they backed off the literal teaching and wend to "God knows your heart, He will make things right."

So...it does seem that faithful members allow for those fall back options.

Is it right to present it one way...with a safety net later on to console people who struggle by then presenting "the spirit of the law" and the "grace of the Lord"? Or should they just teach that up front and risk that some people won't be motivated to ever go to the temple?

(ps...see my signature line with Obi-wan's response to Luke)
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Roy
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by Roy » 04 Apr 2017, 12:12

Just for the sake of clarification, I understand that individuals that are not resurrected with celestial bodies will not have reproductive organs. This is gospel teaching under the Mcconkie school of thought. It is much less about eternal families as it is about eternal increase.

The catalyst for my FC was the stillbirth of my daughter. It was difficult to learn that she did not officially exist as a member of our family (on church records aka the book of life). No ordinances are performed for stillborn children.

Is She part of our eternal family or Not? DW and I get to decide. It was frightening at first to be in a position were church records and temple ordinances meant nothing (in regards to what we believed about our daughter and our connection to her).

Spoiler alert: We decided that our deceased daughter is part of our family. I know of other families that have come to different conclusions and I respect their thoughts and feelings on their individual circumstances.

For me lately I have begun to think of the temple sealing like training wheels. They can be super helpful to provide for stability and balance as you try to find your footing. However, there also comes a point where they can be unnecessary and even a hindrance to a more mature and fully developed familial love.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Heber13
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by Heber13 » 04 Apr 2017, 12:19

Roy wrote:
04 Apr 2017, 12:12
For me lately I have begun to think of the temple sealing like training wheels. They can be super helpful to provide for stability and balance as you try to find your footing. However, there also comes a point where they can be unnecessary and even a hindrance to a more mature and fully developed familial love.
This is a wonderful view!! Love it.
Roy wrote:
04 Apr 2017, 12:12
I understand that individuals that are not resurrected with celestial bodies will not have reproductive organs.
for clarification...everyone gets resurrected...right? But it seems McConkie-school-of-thought has to come up with new doctrines to support specific things...like 2 kinds of resurrections. Celestial resurrection and other types of resurrection. And that isn't suported in the scriptures at all.

That also gets into the area of discussing the immaculate conception vs literal conception with a celestial father in heaven and Mary.

Again...the more you take things literal...the more problems it introduces in our lack of knowledge on how things work in the heavens. It is the problem with a literal church.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Roy
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Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by Roy » 04 Apr 2017, 12:55

Yes, Heber. I agree that it is quite speculative and not supported in scripture. It is just how some find semi-orthodox/apologist answers for the "How or why would god keep us apart?" quandary.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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LookingHard
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by LookingHard » 04 Apr 2017, 14:24

I don't want to take away from the thoughtful comments, but one thing that holy cow reminded me of was dealing with percentages.

I have heard that the current % of people in the world at this time is 0.07%. I think one of the leaked documents talked about the current rate of temple marriages is 6% of the membership is getting temple marriages. It wasn't clear on how that is generated, is it per year marriages or is 6% of all 15M members???

But anyway, the LDS make a VERY small number of the people on earth today and only a small fraction of them are sealed in the temple. Don't even try to calculate given all mankind up to this point as it gets into too many zeros to the right of the decimal point.

If we are saying that just having a sealing can "help" a marriage, then that seems outrageously unfair why so few people get to have that blessing in their marriage in mortality.

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Heber13
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by Heber13 » 04 Apr 2017, 14:32

I agree with about 95% of what you just said :angel:
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Ann
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Joined: 09 Sep 2012, 02:17

Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by Ann » 04 Apr 2017, 14:38

Roy wrote:
04 Apr 2017, 12:12


It was frightening at first to be in a position were church records and temple ordinances meant nothing....
For me lately I have begun to think of the temple sealing like training wheels. They can be super helpful to provide for stability and balance as you try to find your footing. However, there also comes a point where they can be unnecessary and even a hindrance to a more mature and fully developed familial love.
I feels to me like we need to change (ala Bushman) the "dominant narrative" of the temple, or too many who find themselves considering the possibility that it's all meaningless won't have any alternative ways to look at it.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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DarkJedi
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by DarkJedi » 04 Apr 2017, 15:08

LookingHard wrote:
04 Apr 2017, 14:24
I don't want to take away from the thoughtful comments, but one thing that holy cow reminded me of was dealing with percentages.

I have heard that the current % of people in the world at this time is 0.07%. I think one of the leaked documents talked about the current rate of temple marriages is 6% of the membership is getting temple marriages. It wasn't clear on how that is generated, is it per year marriages or is 6% of all 15M members???

But anyway, the LDS make a VERY small number of the people on earth today and only a small fraction of them are sealed in the temple. Don't even try to calculate given all mankind up to this point as it gets into too many zeros to the right of the decimal point.

If we are saying that just having a sealing can "help" a marriage, then that seems outrageously unfair why so few people get to have that blessing in their marriage in mortality.
This is only my stake and gleaned from the quarterly report. About 22% of our members are sealed in the temple. About 18% of the total membership hold a current TR. SM attendance is about 37%.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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