No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

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SilentDawning
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by SilentDawning » 09 Apr 2017, 02:56

The scripture below seems to corroborate the idea that even if you screw up after eternal marriage, you can still avoid PERMANENT punishment.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;
But then, this scripture immediately above seems to conflict with this one:
8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

.....

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
You could argue that the scripture immediately above does not say specifically that screwing up in this life has permanent punishment. You could argue that it's saying it's simply foolish to not worry about the consequences of sin, and that the suffering may well be more than the people in the bold part above imagine.

But get this -- if you taught over the pulpit that the only thing that will keep you punished over the long term (and by that, I think you have to mean shut out of the celestial kingdom) was murder, you'd be censured by every traditional believer out there. So, it's one of those things you keep to yourself...
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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nibbler
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by nibbler » 09 Apr 2017, 06:04

Contradictions in scriptures and doctrines, the modern day equivalent to multiply and replenish the earth and to not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

One interpretation is that the fruit had some quality about it that introduced Adam and Eve to the knowledge of good and evil, they wised up after they ate the fruit. Another interpretation is that perhaps the incongruity between the two commandments caused Adam and Eve to weigh their options. In the later scenario mulling things over and making a decision between two "conflicting" things is how their eyes were opened, not some intrinsic property of the fruit.

- - -

It would really help me if each of us defined what it means to endure. In the last several posts it looks like most of us interpret not "enduring to the end" as something negative. Is that always the case?

Does enduring to the end mean living a sin free life? If so I think all of us are in trouble. Does it mean living a relatively sin free life, like just make sure you don't break commandments x, y, or z and you're fine. Is there a line that if crossed someone is no longer considered to have endured to the end? Is that line the same for everyone?

Just don't deny the holy ghost and you're good. What does that mean? If you have to ask, you're good. ;)

Does enduring to the end mean an unbroken record of attending church? Is enduring to the end more about maintaining appearances of tribal belonging throughout your life?

Inquiring minds.
The time to relax is when you don't have time for it. - Sydney J. Harris

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dande48
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by dande48 » 09 Apr 2017, 06:33

nibbler wrote:
09 Apr 2017, 06:04
One interpretation is that the fruit had some quality about it that introduced Adam and Eve to the knowledge of good and evil, they wised up after they ate the fruit. Another interpretation is that perhaps the incongruity between the two commandments caused Adam and Eve to weigh their options. In the later scenario mulling things over and making a decision between two "conflicting" things is how their eyes were opened, not some intrinsic property of the fruit.
I like that.

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nibbler
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by nibbler » 09 Apr 2017, 06:39

Back to the idea of whether enduring to the end is always a good thing.

There's a balance to things but things tend to get out of whack in life. Take humility vs. pride for instance. Either taken to an extreme probably isn't the healthiest thing for our mental well being. We have a lot of negative self imagery in our teachings, it's meant to keep people humble, help them not get puffed up in pride, etc.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god. We're lowly creatures... perhaps it's rooted in our psyche that we are all deserving of punishment and must go the extra mile in order to avoid it. The wicked take the truth to be hard. God has asked us to do this thing, this thing is uncomfortable to do, it goes against my natural man, but it's only uncomfortable because we are fallen, if I were more righteous I wouldn't be uncomfortable doing this. This is what god wants me to do so I must "endure" it.

Sometimes people get caught up in the above. Maybe we don't practice mortification of the flesh but do we practice mortification of the spirit? Following the commandments is supposed to be uncomfortable, right?

What if we were experiencing water torture, a single drop of water falling on our heads over and over again, driving us to the point of insanity. What if the only shackles keeping us rooted under the drip was a mental prison that we constructed for ourselves? We were free to step one foot in any direction and the drips of water would miss us entirely.

Don't move. It's supposed to be uncomfortable.
Don't move. The pain is purifying.
Don't move. We are meant to endure to the end.

Would god want us to continue to be unhappy enduring something that made us uncomfortable, even when we were consecrating our pain to god... or would god want us to take one step in any direction? If we took the step would we feel as if we had failed to endure? How would other people in water torture devices of their own that decide not to take a step view us if they watched us step out of our torture device? Would they believe we endured? How would other people's words affect how we viewed ourselves?

My point wasn't to compare the church to a torture device. My point is that maybe god doesn't want us to endure something that we believe we are meant to endure. Perhaps failing to "endure to the end" isn't always such a bad thing.

Getting back to sealings. Some relationships are abusive. They are like water torture. Telling someone in an abusive relationship that their relationship is eternal due to some ordinance will not resonate.

The very word "endure" has both positive and negative connotations. The word, all by itself, is contradictory. Let it kick you out of the garden. The garden was starting to get boring anyway.
The time to relax is when you don't have time for it. - Sydney J. Harris

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nibbler
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by nibbler » 09 Apr 2017, 07:01

... and there's another way to parse the phrase "endure to the end." Maybe one that renders the phrase meaningless for people.

There's a difference between saying "endure" and saying "endure to the end."

I didn't endure in an orthodox faith but I did endure the orthodox faith to its end.

I hope I'm conveying what I'm thinking.

You endure something... until you don't. It ended. Then it's on to enduring the next thing.
The time to relax is when you don't have time for it. - Sydney J. Harris

Roy
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Re: No Eternal Family without Ordinances and Endurance?

Post by Roy » 09 Apr 2017, 10:12

For the old me "endure to the end" brought me images of pioneer handcarts.

"You must pull this handcart."

"How Long?"

"Until you die."

I am now looking at "endure" as something different, something akin to remain, continue, pursue. When the bible says "be therefore perfect" it means to be whole or fully developed. Maybe "endure" can mean something similar.

I now take endure to mean to never give up. I have left the safety of the iron rod but I am not lost. I remain a spiritual child of Heavenly parents. I continue to explore and learn. I pursue truth and goodness as best as I can understand them. I endure in my life quest until I fulfill the measure of my creation. :mrgreen:
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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