What are the chances the WoW will change soon?

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Ray DeGraw
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Re: What are the chances the WoW will change soon?

Post by Ray DeGraw » 03 Apr 2017, 09:35

As a first step, I would like to see it removed from the requirements for baptism (and, ideally, Priesthood ordination) and kept only as a temple requirement.

That would solve so many problems, particularly with missionary work.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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Heber13
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Re: What are the chances the WoW will change soon?

Post by Heber13 » 03 Apr 2017, 12:17

On Own Now wrote:
03 Apr 2017, 09:23
I think having a beer or a glass of wine is far different from getting drunk, so sure, drink a bit here and there, that's fine. Socialize with your friends/neighbors, but keep it in check.
I would agree with this...and want to see them bring it back to some gospel teaching that matters. No tea is simply obedience, not really teaching us anything other than that.

OON is suggesting an important concept for young people to remember...that taking substances that impair our thinking or judgment is not in line with God's plan to stay alert and aware and seeking the spirit always in our lives.

Living dependent on tobacco, or on alcohol daily is not going to strengthen your spirit. That is in line with a gospel lesson.

Not having a glass of wine at dinner with friends honestly has no teaching moment that I can think of except..."hey...I'm mormon".
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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DarkJedi
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Re: What are the chances the WoW will change soon?

Post by DarkJedi » 03 Apr 2017, 12:53

Heber13 wrote:
03 Apr 2017, 12:17
On Own Now wrote:
03 Apr 2017, 09:23
I think having a beer or a glass of wine is far different from getting drunk, so sure, drink a bit here and there, that's fine. Socialize with your friends/neighbors, but keep it in check.
I would agree with this...and want to see them bring it back to some gospel teaching that matters. No tea is simply obedience, not really teaching us anything other than that.

OON is suggesting an important concept for young people to remember...that taking substances that impair our thinking or judgment is not in line with God's plan to stay alert and aware and seeking the spirit always in our lives.

Living dependent on tobacco, or on alcohol daily is not going to strengthen your spirit. That is in line with a gospel lesson.

Not having a glass of wine at dinner with friends honestly has no teaching moment that I can think of except..."hey...I'm mormon".
I'm down with this "teach them correct principles" concept relating to the WoW. :thumbup:
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: What are the chances the WoW will change soon?

Post by hawkgrrrl » 03 Apr 2017, 12:59

Ray DeGraw wrote:
03 Apr 2017, 09:35
As a first step, I would like to see it removed from the requirements for baptism (and, ideally, Priesthood ordination) and kept only as a temple requirement.

That would solve so many problems, particularly with missionary work.
That's a sensible solution. It'll never fly, Orville! There have been studies that show that the more you require of people in a religion, the better your retention. The problem is that maybe that's not going to be true forever. This current generation really challenges things in a new way. I'm not sure they will keep getting the same results from that strategy. Plus, there's something to be said for the fact that WoW was always supposed to be a guideline.

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Heber13
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Re: What are the chances the WoW will change soon?

Post by Heber13 » 03 Apr 2017, 13:05

hawkgrrrl wrote:
03 Apr 2017, 12:59
Ray DeGraw wrote:
03 Apr 2017, 09:35
As a first step, I would like to see it removed from the requirements for baptism (and, ideally, Priesthood ordination) and kept only as a temple requirement.

That would solve so many problems, particularly with missionary work.
That's a sensible solution. It'll never fly, Orville! There have been studies that show that the more you require of people in a religion, the better your retention. The problem is that maybe that's not going to be true forever. This current generation really challenges things in a new way. I'm not sure they will keep getting the same results from that strategy. Plus, there's something to be said for the fact that WoW was always supposed to be a guideline.
Didn't those studies show that there is a point where requiring more and requiring more eventually loses a certain group, while strengthening a group? It doesn't strengthen everyone equally.

At some point...doing things just to require sacrifice wears off, and there is a correction or response.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Re: What are the chances the WoW will change soon?

Post by nibbler » 03 Apr 2017, 13:47

Heber13 wrote:
03 Apr 2017, 12:17
... No tea is simply obedience, not really teaching us anything other than that. ...
The Right Honourable, member of the Order of the Garter, member of Her Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council, even Charles "the Earl" Grey. I hear they named a harmful drug after him.
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Minyan Man
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Re: What are the chances the WoW will change soon?

Post by Minyan Man » 03 Apr 2017, 15:26

There is a quote in the Journal of Discourses by BY dated Oct 9, 1865 that said:
The Lord gave me strength to lay aside tobacco, and it is very rarely indeed that I taste tea or coffee; yet I have no objection to aged persons, when they are fatigued and feel infirm, taking a little stimulus that will do them good.
JD 11:140-141

It is interesting to see how the WoW has developed over time. It is similar to other doctrines & teachings of the church that change & develop over the
years to what we have today. It wasn't a single revelation at a particular moment in time. I wonder if the 10 commandments developed over time?

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Re: What are the chances the WoW will change soon?

Post by dande48 » 03 Apr 2017, 19:57

Didn't those studies show that there is a point where requiring more and requiring more eventually loses a certain group, while strengthening a group? It doesn't strengthen everyone equally.
I'm not sure which studies are being referred to, but I read a couple done by Dr. Robert Caldini that were along the same lines. The conclusion was, the more you commit to and sacrifice for a group, the stronger your commitment will be, and the harder it will be to break away. With the Church, didn't any of you go the process of thinking, "I've given up so much for the Church. It HAS to be TRUE!"

Devil'sAdvocate, I wasn't able to find the study you mentioned. Would you mind sending me the link? I'd find it interesting. And I fully agree that the majority members of the LDS church drink. I was referring to the active members of the Church, which I understand is unfair sampling. But they are also the most prominent members to the Church leadership. An "apostate" who drinks and doesn't believe in the Word of Wisdom, isn't going to change any policy. "You've lost your testimony of it, because you haven't been keeping it." That's what they'd say.

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Re: What are the chances the WoW will change soon?

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 03 Apr 2017, 21:27

dande48 wrote:
03 Apr 2017, 19:57
Devil'sAdvocate, I wasn't able to find the study you mentioned. Would you mind sending me the link? I'd find it interesting. And I fully agree that the majority members of the LDS church drink. I was referring to the active members of the Church, which I understand is unfair sampling. But they are also the most prominent members to the Church leadership. An "apostate" who drinks and doesn't believe in the Word of Wisdom, isn't going to change any policy. "You've lost your testimony of it, because you haven't been keeping it." That's what they'd say.
I was just talking about the article in the Salt Lake Tribune that I linked to in the first post of this thread and one part of that was that they mentioned poll results from Jana Riess about what looks like changing attitudes about the WoW for different generations. I'm not sure if these results are published somewhere else as well.
"Truth is what works." - William James

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Reuben
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Re: What are the chances the WoW will change soon?

Post by Reuben » 04 Apr 2017, 02:12

dande48 wrote:
03 Apr 2017, 19:57
I'm not sure which studies are being referred to, but I read a couple done by Dr. Robert Caldini that were along the same lines. The conclusion was, the more you commit to and sacrifice for a group, the stronger your commitment will be, and the harder it will be to break away. With the Church, didn't any of you go the process of thinking, "I've given up so much for the Church. It HAS to be TRUE!"
Honestly, no. I thought, "I've given up so much. Surely that merits a little help!"

My mind seems to not regard my past or future actions much when determining truth. That might be me internalizing lessons from utility theory, where it's suboptimal to do so, or I might just be wired that way, or both. In any case, I seem to be one of those for whom obedience for it's own sake is less effective.

That's not to say it's ineffective. Not drinking alcohol has certainly kept me a little more isolated since I graduated and moved out of Utah. Not drinking coffee has certainly made me stand out since moving to Europe.
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