Did Heavenly Mother participate in the creation?

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Joni
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Re: Did Heavenly Mother participate in the creation?

Post by Joni » 23 Feb 2017, 15:08

So here are the possible conclusions I've come to:

1) It's possible that God did not allow his wife to participate in the Creation. In this case, God is a sexist jerk.

2) It's possible that God DID allow his wife to participate in the Creation, but He does not have a problem with taking the credit for Her work. He demands that we never stop giving praise and gratitude to Him for the awesome world we live in, but He is not troubled when His wife is given neither. In this case, God is a sexist jerk.

3) It's possible that Heavenly Mother did not participate in the Creation because She was busy doing a different, equally important thing. However, God does not want us to know what this was, instead preferring that all our praise and gratitude be directed towards Him and Him alone. In this case, God is a sexist jerk.

I think about this in the context of my own marriage. If my husband was required to create something big, say an earth, he would want my participation even if nobody was requiring it. (I am way more creative than him, and even if I wasn't, my husband tends to be very humble about his own skills and seeks out the input of others.) Later, if people praised him for creating this awesome thing, my husband would insist that I received my fair share of the praise - probably more than my fair share, knowing him. A man who takes credit and accepts praise for his wife's work isn't really any more enlightened than a man who doesn't let his wife participate in the first place.

I can accept that the creation story in the endowment is wrong (I struggle to understand why God hasn't seen fit to correct the sexism, but okay). I can accept that a lot of the more troubling aspects of the endowment are wrong. But where does that leave us? Doesn't the majority of our exclusive truth claim hang on the temple?

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Did Heavenly Mother participate in the creation?

Post by hawkgrrrl » 23 Feb 2017, 15:12

Doesn't the majority of our exclusive truth claim hang on the temple?
No, I don't think so. Exclusive truth claims are about revelation being ongoing (God being at the head of the church), but the temple is about humans making covenants.

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Holy Cow
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Re: Did Heavenly Mother participate in the creation?

Post by Holy Cow » 23 Feb 2017, 16:19

Joni wrote:So here are the possible conclusions I've come to:

1) It's possible that God did not allow his wife to participate in the Creation. In this case, God is a sexist jerk.

2) It's possible that God DID allow his wife to participate in the Creation, but He does not have a problem with taking the credit for Her work. He demands that we never stop giving praise and gratitude to Him for the awesome world we live in, but He is not troubled when His wife is given neither. In this case, God is a sexist jerk.

3) It's possible that Heavenly Mother did not participate in the Creation because She was busy doing a different, equally important thing. However, God does not want us to know what this was, instead preferring that all our praise and gratitude be directed towards Him and Him alone. In this case, God is a sexist jerk.
Joni, I think you're missing one HUGE conclusion:
4) None of the above. The stories we're told about the creation were written thousands of years ago by people who really had no idea about the actual creation. The story is symbolic and has nothing to do with a male/female hierarchy. And the temple ceremony was written in a sexist time by sexist men. None of it actually came directly from God's (male or female) mouth. I know there's a lot of sexist nonsense in the church, but you don't have to believe that any of it came from God.
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squarepeg
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Re: Did Heavenly Mother participate in the creation?

Post by squarepeg » 23 Feb 2017, 21:29

Joni wrote:
1. Do you think Heavenly Mother(s) participated in the creation of the earth?

2. If yes, how do you reconcile that with the fact that the creation is depicted in the temple as being an all male endeavor?
1. I think the creation story is probably just a story, like the creation stories of many other cultural traditions. The actual literal Creation could've happened in countless ways. As a kid, in the Church, my mom and various Primary teachers taught me that Heavenly Mother did help create the earth, so I always accepted it as a given even though it isn't in the official story.

2. I think the creation is depicted in the temple as an all-male endeavor because our culture for many centuries has been patriarchal, and that's the lens through which we've traditionally viewed everything. The scriptures are mostly full of stories about men with I'd say <10% of the material being about women. It doesn't mean women weren't around or that they weren't doing anything important. It just means there's a longstanding tradition of not bothering to mention them when they do important stuff. Kinda like the "King James" translation of the Bible wasn't exactly King James sitting there at a desk, translating away; it was a whole bunch of dudes working together on the translation, and then presenting it to the King and slapping his name on it. I assume the king commissioned it. Maybe Heavenly Father commissioned Heavenly Mother to make a world. Maybe she did all the work. Maybe it was totally fun and she was happy to do it by herself. Maybe she's miffed about not getting credited. Maybe she doesn't even care whether she gets credit or not; she's busy making even cooler worlds, now.

ydeve
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Re: Did Heavenly Mother participate in the creation?

Post by ydeve » 23 Feb 2017, 23:24

Holy Cow wrote: Joni, I think you're missing one HUGE conclusion:
4) None of the above. The stories we're told about the creation were written thousands of years ago by people who really had no idea about the actual creation. The story is symbolic and has nothing to do with a male/female hierarchy. And the temple ceremony was written in a sexist time by sexist men. None of it actually came directly from God's (male or female) mouth. I know there's a lot of sexist nonsense in the church, but you don't have to believe that any of it came from God.
This. I don't believe in a bigoted god, but a lot of church leaders, past and present, are bigoted jerks.

Joni
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Re: Did Heavenly Mother participate in the creation?

Post by Joni » 24 Feb 2017, 04:42

If God doesn't see fit to correct the sexist assumptions of His prophets, with whom He presumably communicates on a regular basis, then doesn't He share some of the blame? He has never, in 180+ years of direct revelation, insisted that His wife get Her fair share of praise and gratitude for Her role in the creation.

Imagine how different the church would be if Heavenly Mother had been a participant in the First Vision! We wouldn't have to keep Her in the shadows since She would have been a vital part of our doctrine from day one.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Did Heavenly Mother participate in the creation?

Post by DarkJedi » 24 Feb 2017, 05:52

Joni wrote:If God doesn't see fit to correct the sexist assumptions of His prophets, with whom He presumably communicates on a regular basis, then doesn't He share some of the blame? He has never, in 180+ years of direct revelation, insisted that His wife get Her fair share of praise and gratitude for Her role in the creation.

Imagine how different the church would be if Heavenly Mother had been a participant in the First Vision! We wouldn't have to keep Her in the shadows since She would have been a vital part of our doctrine from day one.
I spent several years being mad at God. Then I realized it wasn't God who led me to believe what I believed about God, it was people (actually "the church" at first). God doesn't talk to Pres. Monson any more than he does anyone else, and God doesn't really talk to him at all - he gets "revelation" the same way everybody else does. It's all in the dark glass/dim mirror.
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Reuben
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Re: Did Heavenly Mother participate in the creation?

Post by Reuben » 24 Feb 2017, 07:45

DarkJedi wrote:I spent several years being mad at God. Then I realized it wasn't God who led me to believe what I believed about God, it was people (actually "the church" at first). God doesn't talk to Pres. Monson any more than he does anyone else, and God doesn't really talk to him at all - he gets "revelation" the same way everybody else does. It's all in the dark glass/dim mirror.
Similarly, I realized just last week that I'm acting in a way inconsistent with what I believe when I get upset at the seers for not having seen. That realization has taken the edge off, but I still get a little peeved.

I'm still working on not being angry with God. It would be easier if I had a concrete idea in mind of a being I should work on forgiving. Should I transfer the anger to the men responsible for teaching me about God and then forgive them instead?
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Orson
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Re: Did Heavenly Mother participate in the creation?

Post by Orson » 24 Feb 2017, 09:25

Reuben wrote: I'm still working on not being angry with God. It would be easier if I had a concrete idea in mind of a being I should work on forgiving. Should I transfer the anger to the men responsible for teaching me about God and then forgive them instead?
That sounds like a great idea. I have found power in forgiveness, it helps bring me closer to understanding what God may think/feel. The way I see it humans find it difficult to forgive someone that doesn't deserve it, but not God. Forgiveness then becomes the act of throwing off the shackles of the natural man, it can be very empowering and spiritually energizing. This is how we become more like God. When we get a taste of divine love it keeps us coming back for more.

I wonder if you could expound on your anger toward God. What are the assumptions that frame it? Who is God? What did he do or not do?
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DarkJedi
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Re: Did Heavenly Mother participate in the creation?

Post by DarkJedi » 24 Feb 2017, 12:49

Reuben wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:I spent several years being mad at God. Then I realized it wasn't God who led me to believe what I believed about God, it was people (actually "the church" at first). God doesn't talk to Pres. Monson any more than he does anyone else, and God doesn't really talk to him at all - he gets "revelation" the same way everybody else does. It's all in the dark glass/dim mirror.
Similarly, I realized just last week that I'm acting in a way inconsistent with what I believe when I get upset at the seers for not having seen. That realization has taken the edge off, but I still get a little peeved.

I'm still working on not being angry with God. It would be easier if I had a concrete idea in mind of a being I should work on forgiving. Should I transfer the anger to the men responsible for teaching me about God and then forgive them instead?
My process was somewhat similar to what you describe Reuben. After realizing that it was not God that gave me false ideas and hopes, my anger transferred to the church because that's where I learned the stuff. My anger at the church was relatively short lived though because I also recognized that the church as an institution does not teach things like The God of the Lost Car Keys. (Yes, I am sure you could find examples in manuals that allude to the idea but in general I don't recognize it as something I hear every week in SS or priesthood.) The church really does make attempts at teaching the pure doctrine of Christ (although they also like to try to add to it). It was the recognition that it is really individuals in the church who teach these things that allowed me to move past the anger because I was/am able to forgive them. That doesn't mean I'm anger free or that I have just given a blanket forgiveness - there is power in the dark side and part of that power is remembering so I don't get hurt again. Those twinges of anger remind me of that.

The other important part of the process for me was formulating what I believe about God. I recognize that the God I believe in is not much like the testimony meeting God, and when I say God I know what I'm talking about but most people who hear me envision the God they believe in. It is in reality the same God (usually) but our views are different. My God is much more like the deist version - the noninterventional Creator. We all need to come up with our own version, but my advice is the less you expect from your God the better off you will be. I don't expect anything from mine.

Perhaps this should be a thread of its own as we do seem to be moving away from the original topic.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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