Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

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mom3
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by mom3 » 17 Jan 2017, 17:29

BY even took it a step further and taught that a woman could leave her husband in favor of marrying a man of "more power in the priesthood and higher keys"
The only polygamist ancestor I had was an aunt who did just that.
I haven't read the entire link but I am disappointed LDS Living appeared to have been softening
I breathe a little easier - this was Meridian Magazine it's more of a zeitgeist.
Brian and Laura Hales
In the words of Gilda Radner "Never Mind"
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by Curt Sunshine » 17 Jan 2017, 18:49

It's already been said, but I simply ignore everything written by that Hales partnership.

I prefer Scott Hales - not just because I know him well, but also because his writing is exceptional and his sense of humor rocks. The fact that he works for the Church History Department is a a delicious topping on the ice cream.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Ann
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by Ann » 17 Jan 2017, 21:37

hawkgrrrl wrote:
"To describe these as "ideas" that "popped up" because "a few early Saints assumed" is not presenting the full truth in my opinion. "
This is a great point. When someone wants to minimize an idea, they attribute it vaguely to individuals, implying they are outliers, and not giving them any rank or authority. When someone wants to bolster an idea, they immediately attach it to a name and position of someone who supports it. We are such an authority fallacy church!

Also, Brian and Laura Hales can kiss my ass.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Okay, :silent:
I could care less about the book. To imply that church leaders didn't say you had to enter polygamy to achieve highest exaltation is disingenuous, and they know it. Brian Hales was behind the pro-polygamy church essay that defended the reprehensible Law of Sarah. I wouldn't trust one thing he or his willing-to-go-along wife have to say on this topic. Polygamy is a garbage fire that should have been dumped long ago. They can dislike her book without sweeping what the church has actually said about polygamy under the revisionist rug.
So true in my mind. I'm wondering how long it will take for the church to pay attention to how this whole endeavor is going and change its approach. Do they realize we read? The polygamy essays are still the straw" for me.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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mom3
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by mom3 » 17 Jan 2017, 22:51

So true in my mind. I'm wondering how long it will take for the church to pay attention to how this whole endeavor is going and change its approach. Do they realize we read? The polygamy essays are still the straw" for me.
Ages.

I really do believe that, we don't confront our shadow very often. We confront things outside of us, but not internal.

I believe the essays and the reason for them is going to be added to pile under the rug. Yes, there will be obscure references to them. And only those who know where to look will find them. And the why they were ever created will be void of answer. I believe it is the continued hope that we just won't look, don't ask, don't tell, or any other reference like that.

I am not sure I blame them. I just wish they felt differently about things.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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nibbler
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by nibbler » 18 Jan 2017, 06:11

mom3 wrote:I believe the essays and the reason for them is going to be added to pile under the rug. Yes, there will be obscure references to them. And only those who know where to look will find them. And the why they were ever created will be void of answer. I believe it is the continued hope that we just won't look, don't ask, don't tell, or any other reference like that.
Last Sunday the essays were brought up during both SM and SS. Unfortunately in my ward the essays are being used to attack people outside of the church or people that have left. It looks like the essays have become the new apologetic, another tool used to highlight the line that divides us from them.

You know how the phrase "so-called" sometimes gets tossed around in a condescending manner? Well in my ward both the SM speaker and SS instructor used the word "critics" spoken in that same tone that conveys disgust. Without getting into too much detail they both implied that there were perfectly valid answers to issues people were having, the criticisms were invalid, and people that let that stuff get to them are in error. Meanwhile I'm thinking, "You really don't want them back, do you?"

I didn't find the experience that out of place for an orthodox group. What other conclusions are there to arrive at? I was more disappointed than anything. Here was something new to discuss for the first time in the 20 years and there's no discussion, it's all lecture, and it's presented as "critics will say there are issues, but the differences are all very minor, like you'd expect if you told your story to different people over many years, the multiple accounts can only increase your testimony in the FV." So there it was, sandwiched between two other topics that also had no questions or discussion. Shotgunned across the congregation and gone in the blink of an eye. If you feel there's an issue you're wrong to feel that way. Next.

I have to remind myself that the purpose of SS isn't to have a discussion, it's to indoctrinate.

I'm off topic aren't I? I will say that I didn't get angry. I was more disappointed than anything. The new SS material won't be used to have discussions, it will be used to separate the wheat from the tares. At least in my ward.

I don't think there's anything wrong with occasionally being triggered. No one taught that polygamy was essential to be in the CK? Laughable. And to state it so definitively? If I didn't know any better I'd say they were trying to get a rise out of some people and give a move along, nothing to see here to others. The rest of the article boils down to "your speculations are wrong, my speculations are right, so stop feeling bad."
“We understand how dangerous a mask can be. We all become what we pretend to be.”
― Patrick Rothfuss


“No man, for any considerable period, can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true.”
― Nathaniel Hawthorne

Ann
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by Ann » 18 Jan 2017, 10:07

mom3 wrote:
So true in my mind. I'm wondering how long it will take for the church to pay attention to how this whole endeavor is going and change its approach. Do they realize we read? The polygamy essays are still "the straw" for me.
Ages.

I really do believe that, we don't confront our shadow very often. We confront things outside of us, but not internal.
I'm becoming not just sympathetic to, but more convinced that people leaving the church is essential to changing the church. Maybe it's really the only way to get attention.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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mom3
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by mom3 » 18 Jan 2017, 10:39

I know my answer will thread jack this a bit but I would like to address it in the thread it came up in because I think they go hand in hand.
Ann wrote - I'm becoming not just sympathetic to, but more convinced that people leaving the church is essential to changing the church. Maybe it's really the only way to get attention.
I hear you but I don't know. I guess I am a firm believer in Rules for Radicals tactics.

From my earliest years people left the church. Often quietly, at least as a kid saw it. It wasn't just an individual but at times an entire family. This was 30 or 40 years before the massive FC rush. At that time it was stated "they were offended." All around me people had narratives to prove it. Not the individual themselves, but all the rest who were still in.

Things haven't changed much as Nibbler pointed out in his response above. We just now have a new club to beat leavers with. To me, the opposite is the only answer for change - if change is even possible.

Imagine if every disaffected soul returned with a mission to spread the gospel. What if you weren't the only soul struggling with polygamy and felt a kinship in your ward. Even if it was silent or only hall chattered. Would it help?

To my way of thinking, every time another person walks, retrenchment grows deeper. Especially the enboldened leavers. It fires both bases and polarization happens. Can a soft explanation can go a long way to softening the hard edges?
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Ann
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Joined: 09 Sep 2012, 02:17

Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by Ann » 18 Jan 2017, 10:41

LookingHard wrote:
Roy wrote:Specifically about polygamy, it is their job to take the present church doctrine and understanding of polygamy as the way things should be and then work backwards from their proving their case.
I want to push back just a bit on this. Brian is an anesthesiologist (no problem with that occupation ;) one of you knows why I say that). Which is one of the main issues that I have with upper church leadership. I think it is the responsibility of the LEADERSHIP to weigh in on some of these areas, but if feels to me they just let people struggle and pass off their responsibilities to apologist so they can keep their hands clean from the mess that this (and other topics are).
I understand our leaders are real people with limitations and personal lives. But my guess is that outsourcing this to someone with an incredible tin ear for the conversation he's leading will prove to have been a mistake. But then! Then we'll hear, "Brian Hales was an energetic, accomplished student of church history whose opinions do not constitute doctrine."
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

Roy
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by Roy » 18 Jan 2017, 11:16

Ann wrote:But then! Then we'll hear, "Brian Hales was an energetic, accomplished student of church history whose opinions do not constitute doctrine."
Yup. I believe that Brian is there to calm the individuals that will say "Bro. Hales knows all about this stuff and he isn't bothered by it." He is the Hugh Nibley for the next generation. I was frankly surprised that his fairly recent wife so quickly began co-writing with him. What level of historical expertise does she provide to the team? My more cynical side believes that the "defending polygamy pill" is slightly easier to swallow coming from a husband and wife team than just with an exclusively male voice.

Plausible deniability all around.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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LookingHard
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by LookingHard » 18 Jan 2017, 11:21

mom3 wrote:I know my answer will thread jack this a bit but I would like to address it in the thread it came up in because I think they go hand in hand.
Ann wrote - I'm becoming not just sympathetic to, but more convinced that people leaving the church is essential to changing the church. Maybe it's really the only way to get attention.
I hear you but I don't know. I guess I am a firm believer in Rules for Radicals tactics.

From my earliest years people left the church. Often quietly, at least as a kid saw it. It wasn't just an individual but at times an entire family. This was 30 or 40 years before the massive FC rush. At that time it was stated "they were offended." All around me people had narratives to prove it. Not the individual themselves, but all the rest who were still in.

Things haven't changed much as Nibbler pointed out in his response above. We just now have a new club to beat leavers with. To me, the opposite is the only answer for change - if change is even possible.

Imagine if every disaffected soul returned with a mission to spread the gospel. What if you weren't the only soul struggling with polygamy and felt a kinship in your ward. Even if it was silent or only hall chattered. Would it help?

To my way of thinking, every time another person walks, retrenchment grows deeper. Especially the enboldened leavers. It fires both bases and polarization happens. Can a soft explanation can go a long way to softening the hard edges?
That was my point I made in the A&E series on Scientology where I mention that Patrick Mason "fears for the fundamentalist takeover of Mormonism." I remember someone pushed back on this statement saying they thought a "takeover" from hardliners. Maybe it isn't so much a "takeover" as the non-fundamentalist abandonment leaving hardliners - but the result is the same.

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