Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

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LookingHard
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Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by LookingHard » 17 Jan 2017, 06:15

Just when I think I could see something and not be triggered to the point of taking the click-bait, I see this in my inbox http://ldsmag.com/the-ghost-of-eternal- ... n-and-men/ saying poo poo to Carol Lynn Pearson's "The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy" book.

I just HAD to respond. Or I FELT I had to and succumbed to the temptation.
"Polygamy is required in the celestial kingdom"? Maybe not, but it is for the part that I have been encouraged to seek. I have been encouraged to go to the temple and seek more than just the celestial kingdom.

"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).

So if someone desires the "highest" form of being like God - where there is "eternal increase", then a prophet HAS said it is required. If you are OK to shoot for way below that then you can ignore polygamy. Why don't we just take it easy and make sure we make it into the Terrestrial kingdom.

The wording in so much of this seems to be picking words very carefully so that they make sense if you read them. But when I dig deeper it isn't so "tame". I makes me cry for the fruits of this "doctrine".

I will state my stance on this again. I am not in a place to tell God that he can't command polygamy, but every time I pray about it I feel it was a mistake made by man.

For me I have to use occam's razor on this topic, especially after reading the book that is negatively critiqued here. Rather than go through these mental contortions to make it "of God", I mark this up as "not from God" and focus my time on loving others (and just my ONE wife).
I have also been noticing a common path for faith crisis. TBM, shelf strained, shelf breaks, pain and disorientation, sometimes trying to put the shelf back up and others decide they need no shelf and are "out", digging a bit deeper for those that didn't just "jump out" and for those that dig deeper they either reach a place of contentment or leave. Even on this site in looking over the people that come and go I see something close to this. I do feel I am close to deciding I have "dug" enough and I can back off. I still want to learn more, but I have reached a point where there is too much to absorb (even with setting my podcast to 2.4x speed :-) ). I have to start minimizing my time focusing on blogs, podcasts, books and focus on my relationships and my work - and just life.

I found out who one of the authors of one of the very professional/logical sites critical of the church over the weekend. I had an exchange with him where he agreed that even though he occasionally adds stuff, but most days he does not even pay attention to "Mormon church" stuff". I must admit that I am actually glad to feel I am about to turn a page, but reminded not quite yet this AM, and certainly hope it brings more peace.

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mom3
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by mom3 » 17 Jan 2017, 13:39

Trigger moments - I hate when they creep up on us.

I think your response was wonderful. I haven't read the entire link but I am disappointed LDS Living appeared to have been softening. I was appreciating the room it appeared to be making. I don't expect full blown disconnect but a moderate, thoughtful tone was helpful.

Ray often uses a line that I love, "May There Be a Road". It sounds like you found one. As the MAS (More Attached Spouse) it did help both of us when the dedication to the blogs and podcasts dropped back. In one sense you actually need or crave all of it. It is such a sucker punch and you feel a hunger to get hold or understand. But when you can let go, it does make room for healing. Like an unexpected day off.

Best of luck with your marriage. Keep saying Hi. Most of all breathe.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Roy
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by Roy » 17 Jan 2017, 14:10

I look at the work of Bryan and Laura Hales as being classically apologist or defensive. I imagine them working as defense attorneys. It is not their job to get to the truth. It is their job to defend their client. If they know of evidence that would implicate their client in wrongdoing, they have no obligation to share (and in most cases have an obligation against sharing confidential information).

Specifically about polygamy, it is their job to take the present church doctrine and understanding of polygamy as the way things should be and then work backwards from their proving their case.

Carol Lynn Pearson's book seems to largely describe the pain people feel from church teachings on this subject. Many things have been taught over the years by church authorities and virtually nothing has been taught lately so people in their ideas about how polygamy might work in the CK refer to what was said before and may not be the current consensus.

I very much dislike that the apologists seem to take the position that people that are pained either misunderstand the doctrine or are speculating into territory where no information is available. They essentially say that they should not worry about their eternal families - just live the best that you can and trust in God for the rest. If this were true then one of two scenarios follow in my mind: 1) Teach sealings as optional and just know that God will sort it out ... or 2) Seal all spouses to all other spouses and more explicitly teach that we do not know for sure what that means but have faith that God will sort it out.

However, it is not the job of apologists to suggest even small changes that the church could do to help. The apologists defend the status quo and just say that the people who are pained are worrying too much and should just stop worrying about it.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Roy
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by Roy » 17 Jan 2017, 14:38

Two ideas soon popped up that cannot be traced to Joseph Smith. A few early Saints assumed that the more wives or offspring they had, either biologically or through adoption ordinances, the greater would be their eternal glory. Another problem involved thinking that being sealed to Joseph Smith or another leader would give them an eternal advantage over being sealed to their biological parents.
This paragraph in particular is interesting (read galling) to me. Both of these ideas can be "traced" to JS. This was a common church teaching in the early Utah period. It was taught explicitly in church publications and from BY, John Taylor, Benjamin Johnson, and Jedediah Grant who claimed that they got it from JS. (These ideas can also be seen in the documented words of JS but much less explicitly.) To describe these as "ideas" that "popped up" because "a few early Saints assumed" is not presenting the full truth in my opinion.

It is Ironic that in the very next paragraph BY is quoted as an authority on the what human relationships will look like after the resurrection. It seems that BY is authoritative and even prophetic when he teaches something that is fairly consistent with what the modern church teaches. His ideas are just speculative assumptions when they do not sufficiently align with what the modern church teaches.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by hawkgrrrl » 17 Jan 2017, 15:21

"To describe these as "ideas" that "popped up" because "a few early Saints assumed" is not presenting the full truth in my opinion. "
This is a great point. When someone wants to minimize an idea, they attribute it vaguely to individuals, implying they are outliers, and not giving them any rank or authority. When someone wants to bolster an idea, they immediately attach it to a name and position of someone who supports it. We are such an authority fallacy church!

Also, Brian and Laura Hales can kiss my ass. I could care less about the book. To imply that church leaders didn't say you had to enter polygamy to achieve highest exaltation is disingenuous, and they know it. Brian Hales was behind the pro-polygamy church essay that defended the reprehensible Law of Sarah. I wouldn't trust one thing he or his willing-to-go-along wife have to say on this topic. Polygamy is a garbage fire that should have been dumped long ago. They can dislike her book without sweeping what the church has actually said about polygamy under the revisionist rug.

Roy
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by Roy » 17 Jan 2017, 15:25

BY even took it a step further and taught that a woman could leave her husband in favor of marrying a man of "more power in the priesthood and higher keys"
"The second way in which a wife can be separated from her husband while he continues to be faithful to his God and his priesthood I have not revealed except to a few persons in this church, and a few have received it from Joseph the Prophet as well as myself. If a woman can find a man holding the keys of the priesthood with higher power and authority than her husband, and he is disposed to take her, he can do so, otherwise she has got to remain where she is. In either of these ways of separation you can discover there is no need for a bill of divorcement. To recapitulate: First, a man forfeits his covenant with a wife or wives, becoming unfaithful to his God and his priesthood—that wife or wives are free from him without a bill of divorcement. Second, if a woman claims protection at the hands of a man possessing more power in the priesthood and higher keys, if he is disposed to rescue her and has obtained the consent of her husband to make her his wife, he can do so without a bill of divorcement. If after she has left her husband and is sealed to another she shall again cohabit with him, it is illicit intercourse and extremely sinful...."
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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LookingHard
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by LookingHard » 17 Jan 2017, 15:32

Thanks for the kind words Mom. I misread your statement of "Keep saying Hi. Most of all breathe" as "most of all breed". :lol: Hey - that can be a stress relief! And maybe even a testimony builder if you believe this study http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -them.html That is the time I many people most passionately scream "Oh God". Just saying.
Roy wrote:I look at the work of Bryan and Laura Hales as being classically apologist or defensive. I imagine them working as defense attorneys. It is not their job to get to the truth. It is their job to defend their client.
I like that explanation / framing. Biting my tongue not to make a lawyer joke, but I have too many good friends that are lawyers and they are some of the people I respect the most.
Roy wrote:Specifically about polygamy, it is their job to take the present church doctrine and understanding of polygamy as the way things should be and then work backwards from their proving their case.
I want to push back just a bit on this. Brian is an anesthesiologist (no problem with that occupation ;) one of you knows why I say that). Which is one of the main issues that I have with upper church leadership. I think it is the responsibility of the LEADERSHIP to weigh in on some of these areas, but if feels to me they just let people struggle and pass off their responsibilities to apologist so they can keep their hands clean from the mess that this (and other topics are).

So to combine your analogies (almost always a way to get in trouble) then my "job" is to then be a prosecuting attorney to get a jury to agree to my point of view. :-) Let's stop pushing the analogy. Something is likely to snap and we might get hurt in the process. :-)
Roy wrote:I very much dislike that the apologists seem to take the position that people that are pained either misunderstand the doctrine or are speculating into territory where no information is available. They essentially say that they should not worry about their eternal families - just live the best that you can and trust in God for the rest. If this were true then one of two scenarios follow in my mind: 1) Teach sealings as optional and just know that God will sort it out ... or 2) Seal all spouses to all other spouses and more explicitly teach that we do not know for sure what that means but have faith that God will sort it out.
I am there with you on this. So often when that, "it will all work out" sounds to much like "the actual sealings are not THAT important so don't fuss about it". Not important?????? "It will all work out" also sounds a bit too close to that saying of "Shoot them all and let God sort them out." Sounds like something Brigham Young would have taken a liking to.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by DarkJedi » 17 Jan 2017, 15:41

hawkgrrrl wrote:Also, Brian and Laura Hales can kiss my ass. I could care less about the book. To imply that church leaders didn't say you had to enter polygamy to achieve highest exaltation is disingenuous, and they know it. Brian Hales was behind the pro-polygamy church essay that defended the reprehensible Law of Sarah. I wouldn't trust one thing he or his willing-to-go-along wife have to say on this topic. Polygamy is a garbage fire that should have been dumped long ago. They can dislike her book without sweeping what the church has actually said about polygamy under the revisionist rug.
That's the one that jumped out at me. I don't have a bunch of time to research it at the moment, but I am 99% sure some of the older leaders have said just that.

I can be triggered, too. I probably just wouldn't have read this blog in the first place just because I know I can be triggered. I should have avoided Sr. Nelson's talk last week. The worst ones are where they sneak up on me.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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LookingHard
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by LookingHard » 17 Jan 2017, 15:57

DarkJedi wrote:I can be triggered, too. I probably just wouldn't have read this blog in the first place just because I know I can be triggered. I should have avoided Sr. Nelson's talk last week. The worst ones are where they sneak up on me.
Now there is some wisdom I need to take. I am probably going to really back off on my time with blogs/podcasts - even this site a bit.

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by hawkgrrrl » 17 Jan 2017, 17:02

When you said Brian Hales is an anesthesiologist it reminded me of an article showing which medical professions skew republican vs. democrat. I'm not even a little surprised to find both surgery (Nelson, Renlund) and anesthesiology in the furthest to the right. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/07/upsh ... ocrat.html

Republicans have less issue with polygamy because they have less issue with the interests of patriarchy at the expense of everyone else.

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