Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
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LookingHard
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by LookingHard » 18 Jan 2017, 11:23

Roy wrote:
Ann wrote:But then! Then we'll hear, "Brian Hales was an energetic, accomplished student of church history whose opinions do not constitute doctrine."
Yup. I believe that Brian is there to calm the individuals that will say "Bro. Hales knows all about this stuff and he isn't bothered by it." He is the Hugh Nibley for the next generation. I was frankly surprised that his fairly recent wife so quickly began co-writing with him. What level of historical expertise does she provide to the team? My more cynical side believes that the "defending polygamy pill" is slightly easier to swallow coming from a husband and wife team than just with an exclusively male voice.

Plausible deniability all around.
Exactly. Did anybody else see the "leaked" document where the church replied to someone with "Hugh Nibley is not a church spokesman". Quote him when he is useful, but throw him under the bus when he is no longer useful.

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Reuben
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by Reuben » 18 Jan 2017, 11:36

LookingHard wrote:
mom3 wrote:To my way of thinking, every time another person walks, retrenchment grows deeper. Especially the enboldened leavers. It fires both bases and polarization happens. Can a soft explanation can go a long way to softening the hard edges?
That was my point I made in the A&E series on Scientology where I mention that Patrick Mason "fears for the fundamentalist takeover of Mormonism." I remember someone pushed back on this statement saying they thought a "takeover" from hardliners. Maybe it isn't so much a "takeover" as the non-fundamentalist abandonment leaving hardliners - but the result is the same.
Yep, it's like evolution instead of intelligent design. Selection bias looks like intention.

I'm seriously considering voting against the Brethren in Ward and/or Stake Conference as an alternative to voting with my feet, partly for this reason.
My intro

Love before dogma. Truth before loyalty. Knowledge before sanctity or certainty.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by DarkJedi » 18 Jan 2017, 12:43

Reuben wrote:I'm seriously considering voting against the Brethren in Ward and/or Stake Conference as an alternative to voting with my feet, partly for this reason.
Frankly I wouldn't do that. No good will come of it. I have likewise been inclined not to sustain individuals (including GAs) in the past and took the passive approach by abstaining. Simply don't raise your hand. You have made your point quietly in your own way and it will go largely unnoticed. It's a principle thing. It works for me, but I do recognize it may not work for all.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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mom3
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by mom3 » 18 Jan 2017, 15:04

I'm seriously considering voting against the Brethren in Ward and/or Stake Conference as an alternative to voting with my feet, partly for this reason.
I am with DJ on this. Our church is sensitive to any push back it gets. We have been since 1830. I truly believe every time a person takes a hard stance, it just emboldens the very thing your pushing against.

Leaving your hand in your lap leaves room for you to still be included in conversations. No matter how noble something larger may seem. It very rarely turns things for good. The only reply might be - "Duly noted." Yet the room is small enough for others to make mental notes you may not want.

Just my .02 cents, since I am keeping up with DJ.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by hawkgrrrl » 19 Jan 2017, 12:38

Apologetics has a long-standing tradition of giving authority figures plausible deniability. They can say things without saying them and deny them whenever expedient. You are beginning to see already.
"every time a person takes a hard stance, it just emboldens the very thing your pushing against."
That which we resist, persists.

Ann
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by Ann » 29 Jan 2017, 02:29

Roy wrote:
Ann wrote:But then! Then we'll hear, "Brian Hales was an energetic, accomplished student of church history whose opinions do not constitute doctrine."
Yup. I believe that Brian is there to calm the individuals that will say "Bro. Hales knows all about this stuff and he isn't bothered by it." He is the Hugh Nibley for the next generation. I was frankly surprised that his fairly recent wife so quickly began co-writing with him. What level of historical expertise does she provide to the team? My more cynical side believes that the "defending polygamy pill" is slightly easier to swallow coming from a husband and wife team than just with an exclusively male voice.

Plausible deniability all around.
I had a post that I accidentally deleted.

Upshot: The Haleses' tendency to, as hawkgrrl says, sweep facts under the revisionist rug is doubly bad because it sets such a low standard for the modern conversation about polygamy. I was triggered by an account on another site of a g-g-g grandmother's authenticated and tragic polygamy story being whitewashed.

I don't really like calling a person by name. It feels harsh, but one person essentially carrying the church's water on this means we will talk about him and now his wife. I know they are good people; I just don't agree with their approach. In addition to all the online discussions, there are three volumes (plus the "toward an understanding" fourth volume) totaling 1,794 pages. When they publish as many pages of authentic, non-cherry picked journals and reminiscences from women, and really wrestle with the implications for their apologetics, I'll have more respect for their work. Right now I sense their love and loyalty to "the cause," but no real human consideration for the cost then and now.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

Roy
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by Roy » 30 Jan 2017, 18:52

Bill Reel has a nice interview with Carol on the topic of her book, The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy.

It can be found here:

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... ts-heaven/
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Ann
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Re: Reminded this AM that I still can be triggered

Post by Ann » 31 Jan 2017, 04:40

Thanks for the link.
This is the issue that life has chosen me to bring to my people.
Quite a statement coming from the author of "Goodbye, I Love You." She got 8,000 responses to her survey and 2,500 stories. She's sent signed copies of this book to all top leadership.
Crazy-making.
Section 132.
If men could understand what that section does to a woman's heart and spirit and psyche, they wouldn't stand for it.
She talks about the damage that looming polygamy does to marriages, intimacy, families, etc. Our insane (my word) sealing policies are discussed. We just need to take harem-style mortal polygamy completely off the table. Then we can help people understand that life is messy - gazillions of people marry more than once - and we need to accept that. Which is a far cry from saying that God was cool with breaking the heart and spirit of your great-great-great grandmother who was pregnant with her sixth when her husband brought home a nineteen year old and hardly had the time of day for her anymore. That is crazy-making, telling girls to love a God who couldn't find any other way to accomplish his work and, who knows, may need to go that route again.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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