Perfection vs. Love, the final battle

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
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borninit
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Re: Perfection vs. Love, the final battle

Post by borninit » 30 Aug 2009, 18:30

swimordie wrote:You guys really make me think. I had a thought.

Christ wasn't perfect.

How's that for a starter!

What I mean is that he broke pretty hard, fast, "commandments" in the context of who he was, where he lived, etc. In fact, these were held against him at the trial that led to his execution. If he was perfectly obedient, why did he break these commandments? Obviously, I know why. My point is just that: he was obedient to his higher power! Not the decrees of his religion.

If I drank wine at the communion of my nephew to demonstrate love and support for him and his family, which level of the celestial kingdom would I be forfeiting? ;) (too cynical?? :roll: )

Not sure my point, that just felt like a huge epiphany for me. :oops:
Name a God given commandment that Christ broke. Christ broke all sorts of the traditions made by generations of the Pharasees to put a "hedge" around the law so no one would break the law. Christ never broke the law, He only violated the "hedge" that was made by man. When He admitted that He was the Son of God, (and that's what killed Him,) He was only telling the truth.
I used to say, "My mission is to reveal a person's true identity to themselves so they can finally deal with it." Now I'm a much nicer person. I can take being threatened with physical harm only so many times.

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Jordan
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Re: Perfection vs. Love, the final battle

Post by Jordan » 30 Aug 2009, 18:47

Heber13 wrote:I think when you are 100% obedient to God's commandments...you are expressing 100% love to God for understanding His will and for your neighbor for serving God and blessing your neighbor.....

.....Think of Christ healing on the sabbath... that act was perfectly obedient in keeping the sabbath holy and loving others and loving God. Those who saw it repulsive and wrong were the ones not understanding the commandment in the first place.
Excellent!
When we are more perfectly loving, we will inevitably seem to become more obedient, even if it's not recognized as such.

And borninit's right. No need to break any commandment's when we are perfectly loving - no commandment is at odds with love.

swimordie
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Re: Perfection vs. Love, the final battle

Post by swimordie » 30 Aug 2009, 23:09

borninit wrote:Name a God given commandment that Christ broke. Christ broke all sorts of the traditions made by generations of the Pharasees to put a "hedge" around the law so no one would break the law. Christ never broke the law, He only violated the "hedge" that was made by man.
I actually agree, I just like being shocking so people will pay attention to me! :oops: :twisted: :lol:

But, you do bring up the point of "God given commandment", in your words. How does one discover that a commandment is "God given"? By love?
Perfectionism hasn't served me. I think I am done with it. -Poppyseed

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borninit
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Re: Perfection vs. Love, the final battle

Post by borninit » 02 Sep 2009, 17:33

But, you do bring up the point of "God given commandment", in your words. How does one discover that a commandment is "God given"? By love?
Uhmmmmm Yes. If you are using LOVE as the channel or conduit to discover God's commandments, like what I would interpret as the job of the Light of Christ, then difinately yes. Go reread Moroni Chapter 7. But just as the sun eminates light in every conceivable wave length, so Christ eminates His light, and in that light is all Godly attributes and LOVE is an attribute of God. Once a person taps into Christ's light he/she can feel and be influenced by it, and live in it. We have been taught that if we have that light in us then our views become greater. If we have love in our hearts then we can see a greater need for it and a bigger need to be it. The two great commandments: Love God with all your heart, might, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself properly cover all other commandments. They are commandments of/to love.

Commandment are definately important to keep but I don't focus too much on "KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS!" We all have the scriptures and they are the tenants of our faith. If we study the scriptures they will fill our hearts with a desire to come to Christ. Praying in faith and humble sincerity opens up the channel even more. With the Light of Christ in us we naturally feel a desire to eminate out to other people as well. I find it easier to love if I live in the Light of Christ and I also realize all too often how little I love. Because of the Light of Christ my views have been broadened and I constantly find new ways to love.

I say that I don't focus too much on keeping the commandments because it's not about keeping a tally. It's not fearing that I am going to break one. An all patient God doesn't care. He knows I'm going to do it and as long as I have a constantly repentant heart and I recommit then I will be OK. He says, "Commit to something. Anything. If you want to do better at reading the scriptures (just an example. It could be anything you know you should be doing better at,) and you don't do it very well, commit to reading one verse tonight. Do it. Commit to it and then something else tomorrow. If you fall down, dust yourself off and recommit. I love you and am perfectly patient with your weakness." I have a testimony of the power of commitment, any commitment no matter how small. Once we can do the small ones we can upgrade to some that are a little larger.

If I live in God's love, my desire is to do whatever pleases God. I suck at it but I try, and the trying is what pleases God. God then sheds in a small degree His love. Experiencing God's love is like an addictive drug. Once you've had it you want more, then more and more and more, and like the drug addict you do whatever is required to get the next fix.

There is no competition between Love and Perfection. You gain perfection by learning to love. By being able to give yourself, and more of yourself you show love. Christ was the perfect example. He loved His Father, did everything His Father told Him to do because of His love for His Father. Christ's only goal was to glorify His Father, and He did it by loving us. Thus Christ kept both of the commandments; to love God, and to love others. In glorifying His Father Christ did nothing self serving. He eminated everything He was and gave it away, to US.

Should we not strive for the same thing? Too many of us are black holes, constantly sucking and never giving. "He that seeketh his life shall lose it, but he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." In the Light of Christ and by His power we can learn to give enough.
I used to say, "My mission is to reveal a person's true identity to themselves so they can finally deal with it." Now I'm a much nicer person. I can take being threatened with physical harm only so many times.

swimordie
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Re: Perfection vs. Love, the final battle

Post by swimordie » 02 Sep 2009, 19:54

borninit wrote:There is no competition between Love and Perfection. You gain perfection by learning to love. By being able to give yourself, and more of yourself you show love. Christ was the perfect example. He loved His Father, did everything His Father told Him to do because of His love for His Father. Christ's only goal was to glorify His Father, and He did it by loving us. Thus Christ kept both of the commandments; to love God, and to love others. In glorifying His Father Christ did nothing self serving. He eminated everything He was and gave it away, to US.
Your whole post is amazing borninit! Beautiful. And I love especially what you said in this quote. You absolutely get it, imho. So, my follow-up: how does the "striving for perfection" get in the way of loving? Or, maybe better said: why does "striving for perfection" get in the way of loving?
Perfectionism hasn't served me. I think I am done with it. -Poppyseed

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borninit
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Re: Perfection vs. Love, the final battle

Post by borninit » 02 Sep 2009, 20:32

In my experience with the regular members of the church, I guess I am one, but I don't consider myself totally a part of the mainstream because of my experience being "Born Again" in a real Born Againer's way, blah, blah, blah,

In my experience, too many of us are trying to do it on our own. Those that I guess you have singled out are striving for perfection without the help of God. They have their wheels spinning but they are going nowhere fast, and they are missing the mark. They are the ones that place too much emphesis on doing the Law, and not enough searching God out. I think in essense they are saving themselves, blindly. In a different way of looking at the scripture "Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven..." means to gain a personal relationship with Christ and the Father.

You can tell the ones in church who get it and those that don't. Those that get it are the ones who are relying on God in pure honesty and trust. They are the ones who have been down on their knees and have reached up and touched the fingertips of the Divine.

We all believe that it is important to do right and we all try to, but in the cloud of everything, the lack of giving all to the Father also means there is going to be a lack of desire and action in giving to another. There is no God-like love outside of the light. It is by living in the Light of Christ that we gain desires above those that we already have. If I show no heartfelt care for you and could care less about others; if I don't volunteer for primary when the sister somes into preisthood and asks for a volunteer, if I suck at my Home Teaching, if refuse to accept callings unless it gratifies my pride or is super easy, it is because I have shut the window and the light isn't in me so much, therefor the the desire to serve and love is not as strong either.

I don't think "striving for perfection" gets in the way of loving. Part of "striving for perfection" is learning to love. Perfection in this context is "striving to be like God," and "God is Love." We can't do it without God teaching us how to do it. I think people who are trying to save themselves without God and the Light of Christ just don't see how important it is to love. That's why Charity is a Spiritual Gift and we are supposed to plead for it. Love and service to others is the ticket to Heaven, by emination of the self, not just simply the persuit of gaining a testimony. Shoot, even the Devil has a testimony :twisted:
Last edited by borninit on 02 Sep 2009, 20:51, edited 1 time in total.
I used to say, "My mission is to reveal a person's true identity to themselves so they can finally deal with it." Now I'm a much nicer person. I can take being threatened with physical harm only so many times.

swimordie
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Re: Perfection vs. Love, the final battle

Post by swimordie » 02 Sep 2009, 20:51

borninit wrote:They are the ones that place too much emphesis on doing the Law, and not enough searching God out. I think in essense they are saving themselves, blindly. In a different way of looking at the scripture "Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven..." means to gain a personal relationship with Christ and the Father.
Wow, again, a fantastic post!! Thank you for answering my questions. I feel I am being filled!

I think the above quote that I highlighted is the basis of the conflict I sense.

What does "Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven..." mean to you? If you asked that in GD class, I guess you would get "Obedience" as the first answer. Maybe "Sacrifice". When would someone say "charity"?

Again, I'm not trying to be judgmental, I'm just projecting a thought process that I sense at church.
Perfectionism hasn't served me. I think I am done with it. -Poppyseed

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Perfection vs. Love, the final battle

Post by Curt Sunshine » 02 Sep 2009, 21:04

What does "Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven..." mean to you?
I think it has to be taken in context of the entire Sermon on the Mount. This is my take on that general issue:

http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2009 ... truly.html
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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borninit
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Re: Perfection vs. Love, the final battle

Post by borninit » 02 Sep 2009, 21:07

Hey Ray, you butted in line :lol:
Too true Swimordie. This thought process you have recognized is more evidence that the membership of the Church doesn't know the central themes of the scriptures and our religion. The BofM repeatedly gives stories of deliverance. Deliverance only after they placed faith and trust in God for it. We need deliverance too, from ourselves, but none of us think that we are the enemy. My greatest enemy to my salvation is ME. I AM THE LIMITOR.

The question "What does Seek ye first the Kingdom mean to you? means to get rid of ME. If I am out of the equation there are only two other things, and they are one and the same; God and my fellow man. Mosiah 2:17.

Jesus Christ and His Love is the central doctrine to our religion. He is the Great Deliverer. His love. It only seems correct that in order to benefit from His Love and Atonement we must become Love too.

To many people miss the mark, and humbly I admit, I miss it too.
I used to say, "My mission is to reveal a person's true identity to themselves so they can finally deal with it." Now I'm a much nicer person. I can take being threatened with physical harm only so many times.

Poppyseed
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Re: Perfection vs. Love, the final battle

Post by Poppyseed » 03 Sep 2009, 07:39

To many people miss the mark, and humbly I admit, I miss it too.
Don't we all!

This earth life and all the earthlings in it are so imperfect. I suppose the real barometer of how loving we are, or how obedient for that matter, is how we treat ourselves and others and what choices we make when circumstances aren't perfect or loving or ideal. I think I find that most problems whether they are interpersonal or otherwise seem to be solved with either love or obedience. Perhaps this is why obedience is the first law in heaven......and why perhaps the first commandments for us above all are about love -- loving God with heart mind and strength and then loving others (I would include self love in here too) the same way too. Perhaps all of earth life is directing us towards working in these two arenas and perhaps these two arenas are really one. Maybe if we can get the vision of this woven into our hearts, the question of the "seek ye first the kingdom...." would be easy because it would come from loving God and loving our fellow man.

I think, Borninit, that your comments make me feel even more that it is so important to be taught by God about all these things. In my current experience, I feel Him take me back to Love and obedience over and over.
“Be not afraid of growing slowly; be afraid only of standing still.” --old Chinese proverb

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