Thoughts on D&C 64:10

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nibbler
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Thoughts on D&C 64:10

Post by nibbler » 30 Nov 2015, 08:30

I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.
I have some thoughts but I don't want to steer the topic in a particular direction. I was just curious as to what people thought about this verse. I'll chime in my my thoughts later.

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Re: Thoughts on D&C 64:10

Post by Curt Sunshine » 30 Nov 2015, 08:41

I believe in the concept of forgiving everyone, but that concept is about what forgiveness does for me.

I do NOT believe in forgetting everything others do, and I DO believe in proper punishment for seriously negative actions (crimes, sins, whatever). I think the concept of forgiveness has been mutated beyond what it is supposed to mean, which complicates the quote in question unnecessarily for many people.

Finally, I think the part about the Lord forgiving whomever hinges on a belief that the Lord is the only one who can know everything about someone and why they did what they did and, therefore, the only one whose judgment to forgive or not will be perfectly right. Without that view, the quote becomes too arbitrary and Calvinistic for me.
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Re: Thoughts on D&C 64:10

Post by Orson » 30 Nov 2015, 09:23

I see the second half of that quote as the most important for us to consider as we try to apply the scriptures to our lives. I appreciate the way the entire quote is worded, because a message of "It's okay, God forgives everyone, forget about trying to improve, go animal!" would not be productive.

When we step up to a higher level I think we can talk about how God does forgive everyone at some level, but to me it is more important that we learn to forgive ourselves and climb higher. I take that verse "of you it is required to forgive all men" as a command to also forgive ourselves.

On the other hand there is something of following God's example that becomes a challenge here. The command to love shows the other side of the coin - God loves everyone and we are supposed to love everyone. If we have the idea that God doesn't forgive everyone we may feel that we don't really need to forgive some.
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Re: Thoughts on D&C 64:10

Post by DarkJedi » 30 Nov 2015, 10:12

I think in my younger years I was probably more forgiving. I believe I'm less forgiving since my FC, partly due to the circumstances surrounding the crisis itself - so I struggle with this a bit. Nevertheless I do believe in the concept of forgiving others, and see it directly related to loving our neighbors (and our enemies). Perhaps there is supposed to be some struggle involved. As has been pointed out, forgiving does not mean forgetting and that could be part of what I struggle with.

I always thought the wording of the first part to be interesting because I believe God forgives everyone through the atonement. Perhaps in context it's saying something like "there's stuff between me and him and that's none of your business - but you need to forgive him if you want to be like me."
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Re: Thoughts on D&C 64:10

Post by Roy » 30 Nov 2015, 10:21

I see this quote in context of other similar scriptures.
Leviticus 19:18
"'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
One concept here is that God will take His own vengeance - He doesn't want anyone doing it for Him. God will fight the battles and avenge His people. The second part of this is that sometimes God forgives. God forgives us as we forgive others - but he also can forgive others who repent like the Ninevites of old (even when Jonah didn't want them forgiven). Is it possible that God might forgive some of those that neither forgive nor repent? Perhaps, but I believe the scriptural trend is against it.

In regards to us the injunction seems to be towards living in unity within the community: "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people," and "Bear with each other and forgive one another." I imagine that ancient religious communities were just as prone to division, strife, and schisms as our more modern equivalents. Religious leaders through the ages have been trying to get us to play nice with each other. :D
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Re: Thoughts on D&C 64:10

Post by Ann » 30 Nov 2015, 10:54

(Editing out comment. I take things very literally too often and always want to start with what the writer was thinking.)
Last edited by Ann on 01 Dec 2015, 13:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on D&C 64:10

Post by Roadrunner » 30 Nov 2015, 11:49

People screw up frequently and severely. I'm amazed sometimes that people continuously make really poor choices, including those who should know better. I try to forgive people pretty quickly but I think it's wise to not forget others' sins and to protect yourself and your family members from others' poor choices.

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Re: Thoughts on D&C 64:10

Post by Heber13 » 30 Nov 2015, 12:53

How does the church exemplify this scripture?

I would say forgiveness is POSSIBLE for all but not immediate and not without effort. There are church courts, discipline, waiting periods, required meekness and show of humility by the offender, and even after forgiveness is granted, there are limitations on trusting the offender.

I can promise to forgive all others in similar fashion as I protect my interests and my family.
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Re: Thoughts on D&C 64:10

Post by nibbler » 01 Dec 2015, 05:43

The first thing that jumps out at me with this verse is that it feels like the lord is holding people to a higher (or different) standard than he holds himself. Sort of a "do as I say, not as I do" approach to forgiveness. Orson touched on this:
Orson wrote:On the other hand there is something of following God's example that becomes a challenge here. The command to love shows the other side of the coin - God loves everyone and we are supposed to love everyone. If we have the idea that God doesn't forgive everyone we may feel that we don't really need to forgive some.
I feel it cuts into the lead by example model that we typically associate with Jesus. It goes against "we love him, because he first loved us." We forgive because he forgives us.
Ray DeGraw wrote:I think the concept of forgiveness has been mutated beyond what it is supposed to mean, which complicates the quote in question unnecessarily for many people.
Yes, I really struggle with a definition. There's a part of me that defines forgiveness as "letting go of our demand for justice" and there's a part of me that wants to limit the definition of forgiveness to a simple "let go of the anger and bitterness inside of us" where the demand for justice is retained.

This is a side note but I have a hard time with understanding how our theology teaches the concept of satisfying the demands of justice. Repentance is required and a part of repentance is to right the wrong where possible. That's where forgiveness creeps into the discussion again. Do people truly allow someone to right a wrong or do they feel that forgiving is the higher ideal and feel pressure to give someone a pass before they feel that the injustice has been adequately resolved?

I also agree that forgiveness isn't about forgetting something. Recently someone told me that forgetting is just that, forgetting. Forgiveness is a conscious decision and we can't forgive if we have forgotten. I hope that made sense.

So back on this concept of the definition of forgiveness being misunderstood. I readily admit that the more I think about it the more confused I get. The tag line I'd use is, "we are commanded to forgive, not commanded to take abuse" but sometimes the line between being forgiving and opening ourselves up to abuse is impossible for me to distinguish. We have scriptures like "whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also" which only complicate it for me.

That's why I tend towards limiting the definition to letting go of anger and bitterness. In that sense forgiveness isn't about satisfying the demands of god and it isn't about helping the offender, it's about freeing ourselves from the things that weigh us down. That's not typically how I see forgiveness taught though. When people ask someone else to forgive I believe they are really saying "let go of your demand for justice." I feel like there should be two different words for each sentiment but I'm struggling to come up with them.

I wish I could go a little deeper but I'd strain myself in the attempt. :smile:

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Re: Thoughts on D&C 64:10

Post by Roy » 01 Dec 2015, 10:45

nibbler wrote:That's why I tend towards limiting the definition to letting go of anger and bitterness. In that sense forgiveness isn't about satisfying the demands of god and it [isn't] about helping the offender, it's about freeing ourselves from the things that weigh us down. That's not typically how I see forgiveness taught though. When people ask someone else to forgive I believe they are really saying "let go of your demand for justice." I feel like there should be two different words for each sentiment but I'm struggling to come up with them.
I agree. It would be helpful to have a clear definition for what forgiveness entails. Just like so many emotions, our words are very limited in being able to capture their entirety.

I do not usually see a problem in this unless you feel the need for your feeling to meet a communal or religious standard. If I must forgive all men and love my neighbor as myself then how do I know that my level of forgiveness and love is sufficient and acceptable to God and my faith community.

I hope that people do not understand this to be a required precedence - that to be forgiven they must forgive or to be loved they must love. I prefer to interpret it that we have been loved and forgiven and because of this example we, ourselves, can dare to love and forgive.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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