Same sex marriage considered apostasy

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LookingHard
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by LookingHard » 13 Nov 2015, 16:15

Just listened to the latest Mormon Stories podcast. I would have to agree that one possible (and maybe the strongest of the candidates) core motivations was to send the clear message "we do not want gays in our church in any way - even if that means a bit of collateral damage".

I fear that Kyle M in his post of "The stakes of zion" is painting what could be what is going to happen http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/11/12/t ... s-of-zion/

Roadrunner
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Roadrunner » 13 Nov 2015, 16:19

I fear that Kyle M in his post of "The stakes of zion" is painting what could be what is going to happen http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/11/12/t ... s-of-zion/
Agreed. I also think that piece may be the most prophetic thing I've heard this week.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Nov 2015, 18:23

I just have to mention one thing that is important, even if it doesn't change in any way the appearance of a strong difference:

The Catholic Church's theology regarding the importance of baptism relative to children essentially dictates that they baptize any child, since not doing so could condemn that child in a literal way. The LDS theology regarding child baptism (and even baptism generally) is radically different - even extremely liberal. There is no absolute need to baptize any children in our theology, so a delay doesn't have the theological impact on eternal reward that a delay would have within Catholic theology.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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LookingHard
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by LookingHard » 13 Nov 2015, 19:11

Thanks Ray. For me it isn't the details. Now that they have had time to reconsider with feedback the "clarification " has been given I keep coming to why they felt they had to create this. I just "feel" it is the blacks and priesthood / temple all over again.


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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Nov 2015, 21:06

I understand and agree, LH. I just want to make sure the hyperbolic and/or unreasonable criticisms are addressed and rejected equally.

The thing about Pope Francis' statement that I liked was not the idea of baptizing children, since I love that part of Mormon theology. It was the loving tone he conveyed - even as he didn't soften his stance about homosexuality in any way. I had seen that tone in numerous ways recently from the LDS leadership, which is why this policy hurt my heart - even though I understand the political issues that might have contributed to it.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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DarkJedi
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by DarkJedi » 13 Nov 2015, 22:48

Ray DeGraw wrote:I just have to mention one thing that is important, even if it doesn't change in any way the appearance of a strong difference:

The Catholic Church's theology regarding the importance of baptism relative to children essentially dictates that they baptize any child, since not doing so could condemn that child in a literal way. The LDS theology regarding child baptism (and even baptism generally) is radically different - even extremely liberal. There is no absolute need to baptize any children in our theology, so a delay doesn't have the theological impact on eternal reward that a delay would have within Catholic theology.
What you say is correct, Ray. However, Catholicism also recognizes that not all infants are baptized and will baptize those older if they seek it. While they don't currently actively proselyte in a manner similar to what we do, they have in the past very aggressively proselytized - hence much of Europe (because of the Roman Empire) and much of South America (because of the conquistadors) are at least nominally Catholic. Having no doctrine of baptism for the dead, the Catholic church will baptize all comers lest they be locked out of heaven forever.

My question is will they baptize those who are in a gay marriage? Will they baptize children of those in a gay marriage? Will they baptize openly gay individuals generally? I think the answer to all of those questions is yes because of the importance of being baptized. But I don't know that for sure. It should also be pointed out that LDS theology associates repentance with baptism while Catholic theology does not necessarily directly connect repentance and baptism (at least in part because it is impossible for a baby to repent).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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amateurparent
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by amateurparent » 13 Nov 2015, 23:13

DarkJedi: By our own theology, it is impossible for an 8 year old to truly repent either. They are considered without sin .. Just like that Catholic baby. We have them practice repentance, and practice taking the sacrament, but it is considered without real meaning.

But then they turn 8 and BOOM! Sin and accountability and repentance all kick in. Kinda sad really .. Seems like the innocence of childhood should last longer.
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.

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richalger
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by richalger » 14 Nov 2015, 09:16

amateurparent wrote:DarkJedi: By our own theology, it is impossible for an 8 year old to truly repent either. They are considered without sin .. Just like that Catholic baby. We have them practice repentance, and practice taking the sacrament, but it is considered without real meaning.

But then they turn 8 and BOOM! Sin and accountability and repentance all kick in. Kinda sad really .. Seems like the innocence of childhood should last longer.
I see the age of 8 as a statistical average, the middle of the bell curve, for when humans begin to be accountable. I say begin because I believe that it is like a sunrise. We are generally, more accountable at 11 than we were at 8 the same at 17. If we are to progress, we must gain knowledge, not just information but things like. Oh, I can live at a new level of living. That is what God has designed us to become.

So I would posit that it is in the plan that we become more and more accountable throughout our lives, because we are willing and able to make higher and higher commitments to the revealed word of God in our lives.

Eight years old is generally old enough to make the commitment of baptism.

GBSmith
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by GBSmith » 14 Nov 2015, 11:15

For me age at baptism isn't as important in LDS theology as is the promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost at confirmation. Telling same sex parents that their children will have to do without it during childhood and adolescence is the more important issue.

dash1730
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by dash1730 » 14 Nov 2015, 13:17

It's no longer just rumor.

Elder Todd Christopherson explains the Q15's thinking about the policy decision and how that is, in his view, an expression of divine principles and doctrine. Read'em and weep, or shout for joy if so inclined.,

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/h ... _xLIDyL1-B_
I may not walk the straight and narrow, but I try to cross it as often as I can.
---J Golden Kimball

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