Same sex marriage considered apostasy

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churchistrue
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by churchistrue » 09 Nov 2015, 14:04

LookingHard wrote:Go listen to a thoughtful faith podcast. It is putting forward some possible legal underpinnings driving this


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Legal underpinnings that don't apply equally for straight non-member or part-member families?
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churchistrue
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by churchistrue » 09 Nov 2015, 14:48

Talking about scenarios and people we know with wife. Her comment..."what this is, is an assault on single moms".

Maybe this is why female input into these decisions would be good.
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Joni
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Joni » 09 Nov 2015, 20:04

Man, I am NOT looking forward to the next fast & testimony meeting. There is an element in my ward that tends to be self-congratulatory from the pulpit on issues like this... And they are the ones that get up every month.

On the other hand, I've been really pleasantly surprised by the conversations I've had with my husband. I always assumed he was totally orthodox/TBM (and maybe he was at one time) but he's actually fairly progressive. He just plays it a lot closer to the vest than I do. So in a weird way, this situation has strengthened my marriage.

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LookingHard
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by LookingHard » 09 Nov 2015, 21:04

churchistrue wrote:
LookingHard wrote:Go listen to a thoughtful faith podcast. It is putting forward some possible legal underpinnings driving this
Legal underpinnings that don't apply equally for straight non-member or part-member families?
I don't know if you listened to the podcasts or not, but I understood that they are SAYING it is to protect children from getting mixed messages, but it could be that the REASON is that the church could be sued for creating some of this discord. It made some sense, but I am a nerd - not a lawyer.

I also listed to the last Mormon matters released today. It was also very good. Lots of talk about "this is a gift in disguise" and will cause more progress in the long run.

churchistrue
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by churchistrue » 10 Nov 2015, 06:05

LookingHard wrote:
churchistrue wrote:
LookingHard wrote:Go listen to a thoughtful faith podcast. It is putting forward some possible legal underpinnings driving this
Legal underpinnings that don't apply equally for straight non-member or part-member families?
I don't know if you listened to the podcasts or not, but I understood that they are SAYING it is to protect children from getting mixed messages, but it could be that the REASON is that the church could be sued for creating some of this discord. It made some sense, but I am a nerd - not a lawyer.

I also listed to the last Mormon matters released today. It was also very good. Lots of talk about "this is a gift in disguise" and will cause more progress in the long run.
Listened to the podcast. The issue I see that this concept of protecting the church legally from parental alienation lawsuits is valid (sort of). But the issue is not unique to gay parent. It also potentially comes into play with a parent who drinks alcohol, has straight sex outside marriage, or even is Catholic or doesn't believe LDS. As a missionary, I observed some pretty serious tension between non-member adults, child investigators/members, and the church. For me, this is a much more common and serious issue with more potential risk to church (which is also why I dismiss this whole issue as a red herring--designed to move the focus away from what the policy really is, gay bashing) as applied to non-members in convert baptism situations than it does with gay parent.
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LookingHard
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by LookingHard » 10 Nov 2015, 06:24

churchistrue wrote:
LookingHard wrote:
churchistrue wrote:LookingHard said "Go listen to a thoughtful faith podcast. It is putting forward some possible legal underpinnings driving this"

Legal underpinnings that don't apply equally for straight non-member or part-member families?
I don't know if you listened to the podcasts or not, but I understood that they are SAYING it is to protect children from getting mixed messages, but it could be that the REASON is that the church could be sued for creating some of this discord. It made some sense, but I am a nerd - not a lawyer.

I also listed to the last Mormon matters released today. It was also very good. Lots of talk about "this is a gift in disguise" and will cause more progress in the long run.
Listened to the podcast. The issue I see that this concept of protecting the church legally from parental alienation lawsuits is valid (sort of). But the issue is not unique to gay parent. It also potentially comes into play with a parent who drinks alcohol, has straight sex outside marriage, or even is Catholic or doesn't believe LDS. As a missionary, I observed some pretty serious tension between non-member adults, child investigators/members, and the church. For me, this is a much more common and serious issue with more potential risk to church (which is also why I dismiss this whole issue as a red herring--designed to move the focus away from what the policy really is, gay bashing) as applied to non-members in convert baptism situations than it does with gay parent.
Agreed. You did get the same conclusions and then some of the same issues about this being very inconsistent. They have stopped short of saying that it is the equivalent (or even worse) than denying the holy ghost! :-)

churchistrue
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by churchistrue » 10 Nov 2015, 06:55

churchistrue wrote:
Listened to the podcast. The issue I see that this concept of protecting the church legally from parental alienation lawsuits is valid (sort of). But the issue is not unique to gay parent. It also potentially comes into play with a parent who drinks alcohol, has straight sex outside marriage, or even is Catholic or doesn't believe LDS. As a missionary, I observed some pretty serious tension between non-member adults, child investigators/members, and the church. For me, this is a much more common and serious issue with more potential risk to church (which is also why I dismiss this whole issue as a red herring--designed to move the focus away from what the policy really is, gay bashing) as applied to non-members in convert baptism situations than it does with gay parent.

PS, I know it's not politically correct but I think both James Ord and Gina Colvin are overly dramatic and extreme with their views on the church. Stuff like "they never regret their decisions." Their extremely cynical view that the brethren's decisions are 100% based on protecting financial assets, etc. It's too bad we have leaders in Progressive Mormonism that are this close minded and extreme.
sharing my view "metaphorical Mormonism" at my blog www.churchistrue.com

mczee
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by mczee » 10 Nov 2015, 07:24

I talk to my ex bishop dad last night about this and brought up some good points.

1. The handbook is a guideline on a case by case experience and should be up to Bishop/SP. Yes, will be mistakes be made (authority roulette) but for the most part people will be good.

2. In the handbook disavowing means you don't disavow your relationship with the parent, it means just disagree with the act of homosexuality that parent is doing. Disavow was probably not the best word to use and people got a little too hung up on it.

3. He also thinks this is for protecting the child's relationship but I think most of us think that is BS. At least this is the intention but the fruits will be nothing but that.

My dad is a big apologist as you can tell. He still thinks this policy isn't the best still.


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LookingHard
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by LookingHard » 10 Nov 2015, 07:27

My only point at pointing to the podcast that James to me made a case for why the church would do this to protect themselves. I don't agree with the entire podcast. In fact I disagree with some of the comments made


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Brian Johnston
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Brian Johnston » 10 Nov 2015, 07:40

Hi everyone,

I don't really participate in Mormon discussions anymore, not online or in real life. My heart will always love this community though, and love the compassion and faith you all show for each other. Whatever God and Christ are, they are a part of you all, and you are a part of them. Thank you for continuing to do that work to make the world we live in a better, more loving place to experience life. You can't fix it all, but you can leave it at least a little better than you found it, wherever you leave your footprints along the journey.

This policy change ... it breaks my heart.

I didn't think I could be shocked anymore. I was wrong. I don't even know why I should care, but I can't not care. I still have many friends and family in the LDS Church, many who are already struggling to stay in and be a part of it. They are such good people, trying so hard to live a good life and love others -- and they make a positive difference in the lives others. They make the world a better place.

People in a same-sex marriage are apostates and must be excommunicated? Fine. I don't personally agree at all ... but fine. I get it. That isn't really even a change on any level. That truly is a policy clarification, a standardization of interpretation and implementation.

But children? [sigh...] Children need to be protected from the Church by being excluded from any meaningful level of participation? We all know what it means socially and spiritually to be excluded. The only reason any of us are here or have been here is because we have felt that way deeply (for whatever reasons) and/or have spent great personal energy ministering to those who have felt this way. I instantly flash in my memory to the thousands of times I have told someone on the margins or the fringes (for whatever reason) that they are loved and we can find a way to include them. I think of the people I used to home teach who didn't fit the mold in one way or another, who felt like they couldn't be a part of the congregation, who desperately NEEDED to be a part of the ward and faith community. I didn't care what anyone else thought, they could always come and sit with me in the pews, or go with me to Sunday School. We can find a place for them.

Or was I always mistaken? Did I just make it worse by giving false hope? This is what races through my mind and my soul.

So this is a policy to protect children? The deep sucker punch baked right into it: this policy change is made to protect these children from what the church knows it will do to them. They must be excluded to protect them from the church, from the people at church. That's the social and spiritual reason given.

The legal worries? Lawsuits? What is the LDS Church worried about losing in a lawsuit? Money? This is what my former religion worries the most about? But it takes money to run such a big, worldwide organization. We have to protect the assets of the church.

I didn't grow up in the Mormon corridor. My fondest memories of church are as a child, living in the midwest, where we met in a local elementary school. Cub Scouts was held at one of the member's houses that had a farm. Or when I was serving in the Army, and we held church in an unused building on base, or literally in a tent in the wilderness, because we all wanted to just be together and commune spiritually for a little while, to take rest and renewal in each others company. God, Christ, The Church, the religion is an idea in the hearts and minds of people. It takes almost no money at all. If there even were enemies, they can't sue an abstract concept. They can't get a legal injunction against being nice to people and helping others in need.

Anyways ... I could ramble on and on.

I'm just popping back on here to say that I love you all. My heart goes out to you all having to deal with this and pick up the shattered pieces. Thank you for putting love out into the world, and for being there for others who come here needing to talk with others who can just listen and not freak out.
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.

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