Same sex marriage considered apostasy

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Roy
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Roy » 11 Nov 2015, 12:52

DevilsAdvocate wrote:For example, in addition to this theory about being afraid of possible legal liabilities to the point that they supposedly felt like they had to do something to try to protect the Church another fairly popular theory is that they supposedly intended this as sort of a purge to separate the wheat from the tares because they don't really want liberals in the Church that sympathize with gays and lesbians and that supposedly don't really believe in the Church and don't pay much if any tithing anyway.
I cannot agree with that theory. I get that the church must do some boundary policing every now and again but purges and witch hunts are not consistent with what I want my church to be. I am trying to give the Brethren of the Q15 the benefit of the doubt and extend as much charity in my judgments as possible.
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Heber13
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Heber13 » 11 Nov 2015, 15:45

I wonder if they "must".
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Roy
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Roy » 11 Nov 2015, 15:59

What I meant by "must" is that if they do not do any boundary policing/maintenance then the brand of what it means to be Mormon will drift and dilute. I find it natural that men that see their role as "watchmen in the tower" and "shepherds over the flock" would perform this type of boundary policing/maintenance.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Heber13
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Heber13 » 11 Nov 2015, 18:26

ya. Good point. They think that is what they are called to do.

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Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

blindsided
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by blindsided » 12 Nov 2015, 00:03

Did we not learned anything from the debacle that has resulted from the rhetoric, exclusion and discrimination around the priesthood ban? This is the issue that consistently has been the most despicable and UnChristlike policy ever--up until now – –advocated by the church.

Aren't we just repeating history. For the church to maintain any sense of respect from a societal and governmental perspective 50 years from now, no discrimination based on sexual orientation will be tolerated.

For once, couldn't we be in the leading edge of love and tolerance standing as an example of Christ to the world rather than clinging to Archaic "doctrine" that is not scientifically sound or consistent with lived human experience?

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mackay11
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by mackay11 » 12 Nov 2015, 04:44

hawkgrrrl wrote:Check back with me in three weeks. We will be at a very different place by then I hope.
Is this supposed to sound as criptic as it does? :)

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LookingHard
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by LookingHard » 12 Nov 2015, 05:48

Hawkgrrrl can answer, but I take this as "this issue isn't 'done' yet"


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DarkJedi
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by DarkJedi » 12 Nov 2015, 06:31

Nearly a week out I think I have gelled what I think. I believe this is policy, not doctrine, and not inspired.

I think the policy is uneven. If the church is going to say children of gay marriage or gay cohabitation cannot fully participate without some hoop jumping the sane should be true of those living in heterosexual cohabitation. If gay marriage and cohabitation is apostasy, so heterosexual cohabitation. In the eyes of the church both are serious sexual sins, and frankly I cannot see much of a difference between the two.
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Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Minyan Man
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Minyan Man » 12 Nov 2015, 08:02

This is not "thus saith the Lord..." (Revelation)

It is "thus saith the Lawyer..." (Policy)

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Heber13
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Heber13 » 12 Nov 2015, 09:46

Minyan Man wrote:This is not "thus saith the Lord..." (Revelation)

It is "thus saith the Lawyer..." (Policy)
When apostles are lawyers, doctors, and businessmen...it can be the same thing. Seriously. For many many decades, that formula has benefited the church by organizing and providing structure and leadership to position to grow and spread the gospel across the world. It hasn't always been a bad thing. In today's world, there are needs the apostles are called to be stewards over.

But sometimes, it feels too corporate and not enough gospel to me. I do not envy the choices they make to navigate through competing needs and taking the criticisms in the short run for things they believe are best for the long term.
blindsided wrote:Aren't we just repeating history.
Good question. If we are...I hope we learn from it and fast forward to the moments when a prophet in 1890 and 1978 asked the Lord and received revelations to reverse prior church policy. I have faith we will, because it will be a no brainer.

History does seem to indicate Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother let the prophet come to them with the solution, and let's us all work through it in the mean time. They don't jump in and stop stuff from happening.

I feel they are watching my reaction to all of this. Regardless of who is right or wrong...how do I conduct myself at church, with my family, with the community as I stumble around trying to make sense of what the church is doing right now and how I align myself to it. I see through the glass darkly, and I stand up for my beliefs based on what I see, and maintain love wins in the end.

I do believe prior generations went through the same things, had their dissonance, and had their trials for which I do not wish for theirs. So...if history is repeating...we should all prepare for a slow change over a long time. That is what has happened before, right?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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