Same sex marriage considered apostasy

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mackay11
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by mackay11 » 08 Nov 2015, 16:10

Hi everyone.

It's been a while. With everything kicking off over this latest mess it occurred to my that you wonderful folks who walk a middle way would probably be really hurting right now.

I can't offer much in words of comfort. I just wanted to visit with you for a while. Job 2:13 style.

NightSG
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by NightSG » 08 Nov 2015, 16:58

SilentDawning wrote:See - this is the example of churchcentric thinking that bothers me so much. You imply that cohabitation, a sin, but legal is an analogy for same sex marriages. Yet, the church allows children of cohabitating parents to have all the blessings of membership and ordinances because it would "grind missionary work to a halt".
Or, possibly, because they see it as a way to encourage cohabiting parents to go spend a few bucks at the courthouse and make their relationship fully legitimate in the eyes of the Church.

NightSG
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by NightSG » 08 Nov 2015, 17:13

DarkJedi wrote:We actually have a fairly recent convert (less than a year) who entered into such a relationship after being baptized and she and her boyfriend (I don't know what to call him) attend fairly regularly - without apparent repercussions (if there is discipline it is low level and very private).
How would you know? There's no disfellowshipment armband or excommunication hat that people have to wear in Church buildings, and the only thing you'd likely notice with a relatively recent convert (who wouldn't have a TR or teach classes anyway, and may also be reluctant to offer a prayer in a large group setting) would be that they refrained from taking the Sacrament, which a fair number of people do on their own conscience without Priesthood guidance when they feel they've not repented adequately for something yet, and is also a fairly common condition of formal probation as well. The whole point of a lot of the secrecy around Church discipline is to avoid turning it into shaming or shunning by only telling the people who need to know (those who might ask someone to teach a class, etc., and they are reminded that it is private information not to be shared or used other than to avoid putting the person in an embarrassing situation by asking them in front of the class to pray or teach) unless the disciplined member makes it known first.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by DarkJedi » 08 Nov 2015, 18:36

NightSG wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:We actually have a fairly recent convert (less than a year) who entered into such a relationship after being baptized and she and her boyfriend (I don't know what to call him) attend fairly regularly - without apparent repercussions (if there is discipline it is low level and very private).
How would you know? There's no disfellowshipment armband or excommunication hat that people have to wear in Church buildings, and the only thing you'd likely notice with a relatively recent convert (who wouldn't have a TR or teach classes anyway, and may also be reluctant to offer a prayer in a large group setting) would be that they refrained from taking the Sacrament, which a fair number of people do on their own conscience without Priesthood guidance when they feel they've not repented adequately for something yet, and is also a fairly common condition of formal probation as well. The whole point of a lot of the secrecy around Church discipline is to avoid turning it into shaming or shunning by only telling the people who need to know (those who might ask someone to teach a class, etc., and they are reminded that it is private information not to be shared or used other than to avoid putting the person in an embarrassing situation by asking them in front of the class to pray or teach) unless the disciplined member makes it known first.
I agree that we are normally unaware of discipline because it is rightly kept private.

Let's just say in this case I do know and what I said here is not the full extent of the situation or what I know. FWIW, she does take the sacrament, and participates in church meetings and she does hold a calling appropriate for a newer member. Any discipline there is in place (if any) is of an informal nature and without church participation restrictions.

I was trying to be more vague (and coy) and look at it from the point of view of a ward member who may not know as much about the situation as I do. It is no secret this couple is cohabiting, other stuff may not be as visible - but in a small ward it's easy to see who takes the sacrament and who doesn't if one cares to look and even more obvious when people you wonder about say prayers, bear testimony, and participate in SS class.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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GBSmith
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by GBSmith » 08 Nov 2015, 18:53

Ray DeGraw wrote:I think cohabitation is the best example to use in opposing this policy precisely because of what you said. SD.

I don't disagree with anything in your comment - and, again, I am not trying to defend the policy. The central issue for me is the excommunication of the parents. Everything else stems from that.
I met with a member of our stake presidency today for a recommend interview and talked to him about the policy telling him I felt the church had made a mistake. In speaking about excommunication he said only a council was mandatory but not excommunication. I thought later how there to could be any different outcome. The main requirement of any court would be to disavow the behavior and that would mean divorcing and moving out and who is going to do that? One thing he told me was that he thought that local leaders were losing sight of the seriousness of the "sin" and that the church had to set a hard and fast rule. I can only assume they did not envision the depth of feeling this would raise up or they're hoping it will blow over in a short time. I think the membership loss is going to way more than they ever imagined.

Ann
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Ann » 09 Nov 2015, 00:02

LookingHard wrote:An LDS.net response http://lds.net/blog/buzz/lds-news/myths ... ys-policy/

It classic "it is a myth" as in "you can't have this as an opinion." To even say a position is an opinion gives it too much credence. It is so very passive/aggressive defensiveness.

They do at least push that this is not doctrine.

And then there is this one that says this policy is pro-family http://www.dannyras.com/blog/why-the-re ... gay-family.
This is precisely why this policy change is consistent with the teachings of Jesus Christ. It puts families—specifically the parent-child relationship—above the earthly administrative body of the Kingdom of God.
Wow. I mean wow.

Here comes a new round of simultaneous retrenchment and alienation/disaffection. So sad.
Well, I have no where to vent but here. I have been directed to that lds.net post by my husband and my head is about to explode.

We've had our worst times in a long time this weekend.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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richalger
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by richalger » 09 Nov 2015, 02:54

mackay11 wrote:I just wanted to visit with you for a while. Job 2:13 style.
That is a great scripture.

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nibbler
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by nibbler » 09 Nov 2015, 06:49

Joni wrote:My husband went to PEC and tells me that my ward is considering having a 5th Sunday lesson on this. I did not hesitate to say that I think that's a terrible idea.
I wouldn't recommend it. It's one of those Catch 22 scenarios for me. I want people to talk about it but I don't want people to talk about it. Both outcomes can end up hurting but I think talking about it in church will lead to an outcome that may hurt worse than saying nothing at all.

This past Sunday the subject was brought up in a talk by our SP and a talk by a visiting member of the 1st Q of the 70. Their comments felt definitive and they felt divisive. I felt more hurt than healed; if the church is meant to be a hospital I think yesterday we went back to the days of treating everything with bloodletting. Two good friends of mine have now resigned from the church and I'll be honest, I seriously considered it myself for the first time.

People have a "wait and see" attitude but I feel like I've already seen enough pain from all this.
amateurparent wrote:
Nibbler wrote "it's frustrating being tethered to the slow kid in a three legged race."
But the slow kid is so grateful to be tethered to you. Thanks for being on the team and willing to participate. Your efforts make the slow kid a little faster.
It's been a hard weekend but the weekend has now hopefully passed. I'm the slow kid, I can see that now. When compared to Christ we are all the slow kid. I apologize for my comment.
It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words, "And this too, shall pass away." How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction!
― Abraham Lincoln

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Gerald
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Gerald » 09 Nov 2015, 08:02

This new policy was brought up by my stake president in the stake adult meeting held last Saturday evening. The next morning was a priesthood leadership meeting followed by a brief meeting with all of the bishops and the stake presidency. I don't know what was discussed in that meeting but I suspect it had something to do with the firestorm of controversy this policy has caused.

I don't really have a pony in this race and so my own reaction is a bit muted. But I do believe that the Church was caught unawares by the controversy and attention generated by this policy change.
So through the dusk of dead, blank-legended And unremunerative years we search to get where life begins, and still we groan because we do not find the living spark where no spark ever was; and thus we die, still searching, like poor old astronomers who totter off to bed and go to sleep, to dream of untriangulated stars.
---Edwin Arlington Robinson---

churchistrue
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by churchistrue » 09 Nov 2015, 08:19

I have kind of set myself up to be a Mormon apologist, so I feel obligated to defend the church. This is the safest place online I have to complain. I've had some angry moments the last few days. It's very, very difficult not to see this as a spiteful, immature reaction to the gay community after losing every fight it's picked recently on the subject. I thought we were moving on, but it doesn't look like it. Yesterday, I'm talking at home with wife and older kids and younger kid says "can someone please tell me whether or not my church hates gays." The situation just sucks. I hope we can make it right soon. I was very hopeful when I heard the church was making a clarification that it would be something like "oops that got out into the media before it was finalized." or at least "it's been interpreted wrong, it only applies to adopted children of same sex parents not split parents". But instead, Elder Christofferson seemed to double down and remove wiggle room in his clarification. None of the logic being used to defend it makes any sense. It hurts a lot of children and families in LGBT community. And not just that. Members who don't hate gays are assumed to be gay bashers. Just four years ago, we were in the middle of the Mormon moment. Mitt Romney was running for president. Book of Mormon musical was popular. Mormons had reputation of being faithful, a little weird, but super nice, hard working, high achievers. Dammit, that's how I want to be perceived! Now we're quickly trying to ruin that reputation for one that is obsessed with discriminating against gays.
sharing my view "metaphorical Mormonism" at my blog www.churchistrue.com

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