Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
User avatar
On Own Now
Posts: 1736
Joined: 18 Jan 2012, 12:45

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by On Own Now » 06 Nov 2015, 09:08

Joni wrote:Temple-married, heterosexual men who beat their wives are not apostates. Men who marry other men are. Okay.
Joni, just for the record... I am just as opposed to the new policy as anyone... but just for the record, a temple-married heterosexual man who beats his wife (or children) will experience a mandatory disciplinary council and the CHI specifically requires bishops to safeguard victims of physical or sexual abuse. The Church isn't looking the other way on that.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

mczee
Posts: 73
Joined: 29 Aug 2015, 01:26

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by mczee » 06 Nov 2015, 09:39

For a non orthodox/literal believer (but faithful) who wants to stay in church, this makes things a little bit tougher to stay. Eck. I'm still processing this. I can see both sides but emotionally its so hard to process.

User avatar
Meh Mormon
Posts: 77
Joined: 10 Jul 2013, 09:49

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Meh Mormon » 06 Nov 2015, 09:53

A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when he is satisfied by personal interviews that both of the following requirements are met:
1.The child accepts and is committed to live the teachings and doctrine of the Church, and specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage.
2.The child is of legal age and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage.
So if my son decides he wants to join the church, he has to move out of his mom's house and live with me, has to say that his mom is an evil person and disavow her relationship with her current partner? Like that is going to happen!!

This is a crazy policy and will drive people from the church. Maybe not in droves, but people will leave. I will probably be one of them.

Joni
Posts: 558
Joined: 22 Nov 2013, 08:36

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Joni » 06 Nov 2015, 09:56

On Own Now wrote:
Joni wrote:Temple-married, heterosexual men who beat their wives are not apostates. Men who marry other men are. Okay.
Joni, just for the record... I am just as opposed to the new policy as anyone... but just for the record, a temple-married heterosexual man who beats his wife (or children) will experience a mandatory disciplinary council and the CHI specifically requires bishops to safeguard victims of physical or sexual abuse. The Church isn't looking the other way on that.
If he gets caught, yes, he may have a disciplinary council, and may even be excommunicated. But he is not labeled an apostate. That's a big difference IMHO. And his children aren't required to move out of the house and disavow abusive marriage before serving a mission.

This policy is literally making me sick to my stomach. The Church has disappointed and frustrated me before, but this is the first time it's ever sickened me.

TataniaAvalon
Posts: 113
Joined: 10 Dec 2013, 05:47
Location: Utah

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by TataniaAvalon » 06 Nov 2015, 11:34

Since I live in Mormon Corridor, you can imagine my Facebook feed has blown up over this, as well has general conversation. Most people are upset over the announcement and think it unnecessary/unfair. Even the commentors on the KSL article are very upset. (You have the usual follow the prophet comments but they are very minimal). I also had a few friends post this article

http://wellbehavedmormonwoman.blogspot. ... ptism.html

Which isn't a bad explanation into the decision but it's still a ridiculous decision. The church has made such progress in the LGBT community and now they're taking a giant step back. When I heard the announcement it hit me hard. One more thing that's difficult for me to ignore to StayLDS. I've been doing ok ignoring the other things that bother me and paying attention to the things that I like but this one is HUGE. I have my first Sunday off in ages and I was going to go to church but now... I don't know if I will. It's fast sunday and I'm sure they'll be testimonies about this.

User avatar
RagDollSallyUT
Posts: 88
Joined: 24 Aug 2012, 12:59
Location: Utah

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by RagDollSallyUT » 06 Nov 2015, 11:51

OH ouch my heart hurts today. I had my issues with the church before but I was trying to hang on to the good stuff. But this is just too much. This is so not inspired.

Besides the article of faith....
Ezekiel 18:20
...The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Imagine you are a missionary and a 14 year old kid just discovered the gospel. Imagine you have to stand to his face and say, "I am sorry, you cannot be a member of our church because of your parents." The irreparable mental number that kid would be devastated with.

Imagine when the kids in an 8 year old class are all getting baptized, and there is one who suddenly is feeling like he is so fundamentally broken that not even God wants him. Imagine the culture that breeds of how the other kids will now likely treat that one for the rest of his/her childhood.

What message does this send all of the church in their social interactions with gays? And what message it sends the gays and their children?

If kids can choose right from wrong and choose to join a church when they are 8, being the child of gay parents doesn't change that. I think this is a cold and calculated manipulation. I think the geriatric dream team who have all lived in bubbles their whole lives are being petty, punitive and literally making a "business move" on purpose, but it's a very uninspired cruel one. I think they are waiting to the age of SEXUAL maturity, thinking gay runs in families or some other such nonsense and they can weed out future gay members that way. Step one. Every mental health professional, educator and well just about everyone, knows that if you want to make real changes in someone, the earlier the intervention the better. Younger are more teachable. Once people reach adulthood change certainly can and does happen, but the odds go way down. If you won't take them when they are young, you might not ever get them. Especially if they were rejected as children. Gay weed wacker from the get go.

Then there is another factor. Children of gays will be more likely to be sympathetic to gay rights, even if they are straight. Now they just can't have that can they? A whole bunch of future members and potential leaders pushing for any sort of gay rights or sympathy (empathy)... oh no that has to be shut down before it starts! So let's make it improbable that the most likely to push for change won't even join the church to begin with.

There are few 18 year olds who are able to be fully financially independent right away in this day and economy. Moving out too early can many times be financial suicide and can bring a life of poverty. I am not saying it can't be done, certainly some do. But that extra burden on a child to have to choose their family and their survival and future and play it against faith is just wrong.

The message is wrong, the policy is NOT inspired, and is wrong. I feel betrayed and devastated by the church I once loved so very much. I am so angry and sad I don't even know what to do with it.
Attacked by Christmas Toys? That's strange. That's the second complaint we've had!-Nightmare Before Christmas
We're gonna need a bigger boat.-Jaws
If we are to be saved in an ark, as Noah and his family were, it will be because we build it.-Brigham Young

User avatar
RagDollSallyUT
Posts: 88
Joined: 24 Aug 2012, 12:59
Location: Utah

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by RagDollSallyUT » 06 Nov 2015, 11:59

Image
Attacked by Christmas Toys? That's strange. That's the second complaint we've had!-Nightmare Before Christmas
We're gonna need a bigger boat.-Jaws
If we are to be saved in an ark, as Noah and his family were, it will be because we build it.-Brigham Young

User avatar
hawkgrrrl
Site Admin
Posts: 3507
Joined: 22 Oct 2008, 16:27

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by hawkgrrrl » 06 Nov 2015, 12:24

Ardis' post is the most positive I've seen. http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2015/11/0 ... y-parents/

Also, Christian Harrison: http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/11/06/yet-i-have-hope/

I wish I could muster the level of hope that either of them has. Right now, I can't.

Joni
Posts: 558
Joined: 22 Nov 2013, 08:36

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Joni » 06 Nov 2015, 12:46

I think they'll back off from this when it affects missionary work. But they won't apologize. After alI, the Church of Jesus Christ does not apologize.
Last edited by Joni on 06 Nov 2015, 12:57, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 7206
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by SilentDawning » 06 Nov 2015, 12:53

I am really confused by this one. It really does show the depth of the church's position on Same Sex Marriage.

I have a question.

Why can a child in a same sex marriage be baptized etcetera but not blessed and put on the records of the church?

Why hold the children accountable for the actions of parents? Most children never chose their circumstances.

Making the children disavow -- YIKES!

I don't think even Ray can get us out of this one ...Ray? Any thoughts?
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

Post Reply