Same sex marriage considered apostasy

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Roadrunner
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Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 15:17

Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Roadrunner » 05 Nov 2015, 19:31

http://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-i ... d-apostasy

This one is causing me some serious angst, more than probably anything in the past. However I can't find this in the handbook on the church website which maybe hasn't been updated or maybe is user error on my part. Children of gay couples can't be blessed or baptized?

TataniaAvalon
Posts: 113
Joined: 10 Dec 2013, 05:47
Location: Utah

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by TataniaAvalon » 05 Nov 2015, 20:42

I'm really hoping that this is a hoax. I haven't found anything on KSL (the church's news site) or LDS.com so really really hoping. Otherwise... I have no words

university
Posts: 150
Joined: 15 Mar 2014, 17:19

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by university » 05 Nov 2015, 21:19

Is there a way we can merge this with Mom3's post?

Hi, all. Obviously I came back to check-in on this forum after a long absence...and it's not coincidence that I came back on the night that this happened:
A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may not receive a name and a blessing. A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may be baptized and confirmed, ordained, or recommended for missionary service only as follows: A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when he is satisfied by personal interviews that both of the following requirements are met: 1.

The child accepts and is committed to live the teachings and doctrine of the Church, and specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage. 2.

The child is of legal age and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage.
I got this from Feminist Mormon Housewives, but its all over local news sources.

I found out from a facebook friend...Mormon and Gay. She's in shock.

From a business perspective, this move makes sense.

But my Church shouldn't be operating like a business.

My prayers are with all of those who are considering suicide tonight and for all those who will be driven to it because of this (rumored) policy, not to mention the heartache this will cause and is already causing.

I have no other words right now.

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 05 Nov 2015, 22:05

university wrote:
...A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship,[/b] whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may be baptized and confirmed, ordained, or recommended for missionary service only as follows: A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when he is satisfied by personal interviews that both of the following requirements are met: 1.

The child accepts and is committed to live the teachings and doctrine of the Church, and specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage. 2.The child is of legal age and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage.
I got this from Feminist Mormon Housewives, but its all over local news sources.

I found out from a facebook friend...Mormon and Gay. She's in shock.

From a business perspective, this move makes sense...But my Church shouldn't be operating like a business.

My prayers are with all of those who are considering suicide tonight and for all those who will be driven to it because of this (rumored) policy, not to mention the heartache this will cause and is already causing.

I have no other words right now.
How does this make sense from a business perspective? I don't get it, is this their idea of taking some bizarre differentiation strategy to extremes? If this report is true my guess is that it will mostly result in bad publicity and many Church members losing faith and/or leaving that would have given Church leaders the benefit of the doubt if they hadn't done this. To me it doesn't make much sense from any perspective other than a hardliner religious zealot perspective. Even then what does it accomplish that wouldn't already be accomplished by the regular hardline chastity policy? And why are only the children of gays and lesbians singled out this way and not straight people cohabiting, convicted felons, etc.?
"Truth is what works." - William James

Joni
Posts: 558
Joined: 22 Nov 2013, 08:36

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Joni » 05 Nov 2015, 22:09

If this is true - I guess the Church isn't worried about retaining Millennials. My kids are likely to be going to school with at least 1 or 2 kids of same sex married couples, and it's bound to be a tough sell convincing my kids that those classmates are somehow so fundamentally broken that they can't even be baptized.

I'm holding out hope that this is a hoax.

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Shades of Grey
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Shades of Grey » 05 Nov 2015, 22:16

I am sick to my stomach upon hearing this on my local news today. An earlier poster says it makes sense from a "business perspective" (obviously not from a Christian perspective) how so? Please can anyone post any faithful explanation in which I can view this from? Ray or Heber or others? The first thing I thought of was "punishing children for the 'sins' of their fathers/mother's is explicitly denounced in LDS doctrine. I need intellectual support on this procedural announcement, please, even if it's the smallest of faithful kernsls to hold onto.
Everybody can be great. Because anybody can serve. You don't have to have a college degree to serve. ...You don't have to know the second theory of thermodynamics in physics to serve. You only need a heart full of grace. A soul generated by love. ~Martin Luther King Jr.

“You have to carry the fire."I don't know how to."Yes, you do."Is the fire real? The fire? "Yes it is."Where is it? I don't know where it is." Yes you do. It's inside you. It always was there. I can see it.”― Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Ann
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Joined: 09 Sep 2012, 02:17

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Ann » 05 Nov 2015, 22:24

Joni wrote:If this is true - I guess the Church isn't worried about retaining Millennials. My kids are likely to be going to school with at least 1 or 2 kids of same sex married couples, and it's bound to be a tough sell convincing my kids that those classmates are somehow so fundamentally broken that they can't even be baptized.

I'm holding out hope that this is a hoax.
I'm thinking about my kids, too. They just don't have it in them.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

university
Posts: 150
Joined: 15 Mar 2014, 17:19

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by university » 05 Nov 2015, 22:27

DevilsAdvocate wrote:
university wrote:
...A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship,[/b] whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may be baptized and confirmed, ordained, or recommended for missionary service only as follows: A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when he is satisfied by personal interviews that both of the following requirements are met: 1.

The child accepts and is committed to live the teachings and doctrine of the Church, and specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage. 2.The child is of legal age and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage.
I got this from Feminist Mormon Housewives, but its all over local news sources.

I found out from a facebook friend...Mormon and Gay. She's in shock.

From a business perspective, this move makes sense...But my Church shouldn't be operating like a business.

My prayers are with all of those who are considering suicide tonight and for all those who will be driven to it because of this (rumored) policy, not to mention the heartache this will cause and is already causing.

I have no other words right now.
How does this make sense from a business perspective? I don't get it, is this their idea of taking some bizarre differentiation strategy to extremes? If this report is true my guess is that it will mostly result in bad publicity and many Church members losing faith and/or leaving that would have given Church leaders the benefit of the doubt if they hadn't done this. To me it doesn't make much sense from any perspective other than a hardliner religious zealot perspective. Even then what does it accomplish that wouldn't already be accomplished by the regular hardline chastity policy? And why are only the children of gays and lesbians singled out this way and not straight people cohabiting, convicted felons, etc.?
You make some good points and I should have worded it differently. I shouldn't have said "business" I should have said something else. Never-the-less, I see this horrible reality:

The Church doesn't want to change its doctrine and doesn't want members that will challenge it working from the inside.

Cutting out youth that have gay parents = cutting out dissenting voices on the issue of gay marriage.

This would be "strengthening" its membership by weeding out "problematic" members, and the Church apparently doesn't care about attracting the kind of members that would disagree with this policy. Basically...so what about the bad publicity, they don't want those people, anyway.

I've also seen the faithful perspective that allowing children in the Church while still a minor would be cruel because they'd have to grow up being in a church that teaches they aren't in a valid family, Thus, "make them wait until they're 18" to make that choice, so to speak (I don't agree with this).

Additionally it kind of cuts the Church out of dealing with some of these issues and puts it on the members to sort out. Let the lesbian mother wrestle with the horror of whether or not to come out and live with her girlfriend, for fear that now her whole family will suffer. Her kids can't get baptized, her son can't serve a mission until he moves out and renounces her (she wouldn't want to put him in that position), among other horrible, awful things. There are now clear guidelines about this kind of stuff :sick:

I'm cutting myself off here before I go on a rant about how awful this policy is.

It's horrible.

I'm one of those millennials.

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by hawkgrrrl » 05 Nov 2015, 22:28

I don't understand how this policy makes any sense from a business perspective, and it contradicts scripture about the sins of the parents not being on the children. It is so extremely punitive toward gay people that it renders their offspring illegitimate to God. How is that even moral?

Kevin Barney posted about the hurdles faced by children of polygamy who are committed to monogamy but don't vociferously denounce the families that raised them: http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/10/11/p ... sm-policy/

This is not-one-drop thinking.

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Reflexzero
Posts: 165
Joined: 15 Aug 2012, 19:58

Re: Same sex marriage considered apostasy

Post by Reflexzero » 05 Nov 2015, 22:28

But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.*

*Some restrictions may apply, see quote.
A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may not receive a name and a blessing. A natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same-gender relationship, whether the couple is married or cohabiting, may be baptized and confirmed, ordained, or recommended for missionary service only as follows: A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize and confirm, ordain, or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who has lived or is living in a same-gender relationship when he is satisfied by personal interviews that both of the following requirements are met:

1. The child accepts and is committed to live the teachings and doctrine of the Church, and specifically disavows the practice of same-gender cohabitation and marriage.

2. The child is of legal age [NO LONGER A LITTLE CHILD] and does not live with a parent who has lived or currently lives in a same-gender cohabitation relationship or marriage.

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