Who or What Demands Justice?

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Heber13
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Re: Who or What Demands Justice?

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Roadrunner wrote:I still remember his amusement when he told me "after you take some chemistry and physics classes come back and tell me why the elements behave like they do."
Bwahaha...Love that response.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
amateurparent
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Re: Who or What Demands Justice?

Post by amateurparent »

I have struggled with this. Yes, I know it is a basic Christian belief, and I should just roll with it. But I can't.

If the following are true:

If God is all powerful.
If God can do anything.
Then God can forgive sins without the need for an atonement.

If that is not so ..

If God has rules that He has to abide by, if there are rules to the universe that must be followed, then where do miracles come from? What makes exceptions possible? It isn't worthiness. It isn't belief. It isn't devotion. Miracles are random.

Anyone have a simple answer? Small words. Simple sentences .. For this slow learner.
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Orson
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Re: Who or What Demands Justice?

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I like the idea that sin is the rejection of grace. If we don't try to bend our old idea of sin to this statement but start with that idea: "sin is the rejection of God's grace" then it makes sense that God cannot lift us out of our "sinful" state (against our will), but his hand is outstretched and waiting for our grasp. Christ said Love is the law, and grace covers any demands of justice. What we need to do is not reject the love and grace offered. It is the prodigal son story.
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DarkJedi
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Re: Who or What Demands Justice?

Post by DarkJedi »

I don't fully understand the Jewish concept of atonement, but I do understand it is something an individual works out with God and involves repentance (or at least the desire to repent). I'm not sure the Jewish concept of Messiah includes our concept of Him also being a spiritual Savior or Redeemer. And I'm not sure they see justice in quite the same way - even the existence of hell is debatable to Jews.
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Ann
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Re: Who or What Demands Justice?

Post by Ann »

I'm not sure anymore than God is demanding justice. I think we have a deep, deep need for reconciliation, repair and peace that - in our minds - can only come from the mercy of a God.
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Re: Who or What Demands Justice?

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amateurparent wrote:I have struggled with this. Yes, I know it is a basic Christian belief, and I should just roll with it. But I can't.

If the following are true:

If God is all powerful.
If God can do anything.
Then God can forgive sins without the need for an atonement.

If that is not so ..

If God has rules that He has to abide by, if there are rules to the universe that must be followed, then where do miracles come from? What makes exceptions possible? It isn't worthiness. It isn't belief. It isn't devotion. Miracles are random.

Anyone have a simple answer? Small words. Simple sentences .. For this slow learner.
I don't have simple answers, these days concepts are tangled in my mind.

Mythologies evolve and I believe that we've seen a subtle shift in a long standing mythology. Science is slowly working itself into the narrative. Who knows, maybe one day it will become the narrative.

I believe we decide for ourselves what is and isn't a miracle. One person's miracle is just a cellphone in the mind of someone else.

I think that most things in life are random. We like to maintain the illusion that there is order because the alternative is frightening or unfulfilling.

As to who or what demands justice... we do.
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Orson
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Re: Who or What Demands Justice?

Post by Orson »

nibbler wrote: As to who or what demands justice... we do.
Yes.
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I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
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Shawn
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Re: Who or What Demands Justice?

Post by Shawn »

amateurparent wrote: If the following are true:

If God is all powerful.
If God can do anything.
Then God can forgive sins without the need for an atonement....
Yes, this is a conundrum. Another question is why would God require the suffering of his son? This is actually a popular anti-Christian argument. I've heard it said that only a sick, twisted god would inflict such suffering on his son in order to be satisfied. That's why I like the idea that the demands of justice do not actually come from God.

I believe God has all the power that is possible for him to possess. There is no power available to him that he does not already have. In that sense, he is all-powerful. There are some laws that he doesn't violate or he would cease to be God (see Alma 42).

By the way, Skousen's talk is HERE. I would skip to "Transcript 2".
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Re: Who or What Demands Justice?

Post by Roy »

Shawn wrote:Yes, this is a conundrum. Another question is why would God require the suffering of his son? This is actually a popular anti-Christian argument. I've heard it said that only a sick, twisted god would inflict such suffering on his son in order to be satisfied. That's why I like the idea that the demands of justice do not actually come from God.
This is actually an area where I like the Trinitarian view (yes, I know it has its problems but just go with it for a minute). The BoM says "Behold the condescension of God" and then shows the crucifixion and atonement. It is then that Nephi understands that the tree represents the Love of God. The BoM in the original wording is even more Trinitarian (it was toned down in editing).

I like the idea of God coming to personally save His children more than His sending a representative.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

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Re: Who or What Demands Justice?

Post by Old-Timer »

Life demands justice. Things that fight nature tend not to survive.

The God of the Old Teatament demands justice - unless He is killing people for not accepting the House of Israel or for not worshipping Him (even though they have no reason to do so).

The God of Calvinism doesn't care about justice, since He predetermines His ultimate decisions regardless of our actions.

The God of Mormonism (the theology, not the membership) is much more gracious, since the final decision doesn't require any particular affiliation or even specific actions in this life - and all universal requirements will be accomplished for everyone eventually. Doing your best is a much less "demanding" standard, especially coupled with loving forgiveness and godly understanding.

Every member sees things through an individual lens, and the human default is to believe one's lens is the only true lens.

Luckily for us, our scriptures and hymns are full of varying views from which we can construct our own understanding.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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