Salvation and Temples

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
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Holy Cow
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by Holy Cow »

I completely understand how people enjoy going to the temple for the peaceful, quiet, focused experience. It can be hard to find that when you're outside of the temple, because of all the other distractions around us. But, I find the same experience when I take time to go searching for solitude in the forest. I also completely love the doctrine of eternal families. I just have a hard time believing that the temple is requisite in families being together in the afterlife. I've said before, that when my kids go off to college, I'm not going to require them to give me a secret handshake to come back a visit. I'll welcome them with open arms. And when they get married, I won't require their spouse to know the secret password before I allow them into our house. I see the temple the same way. I just have a hard time believing that a loving Father would require us to know a bunch of masonic tokens and symbols before he allowing us to be with our families forever.
And I see very little in our temple that directly relates to ancient temples. Except maybe the money changers. I say that half-way joking, but it really was surprising to me the first time I went to the temple to get past the entry and walk directly to a row of cash registers to rent clothing. And then to go down to the cafeteria to buy lunch. Sure, you can argue that they're only doing it to cover the cost of the clothes/food, and they don't make a profit, but still... It feels a little hypocritical when we have the lesson on Christ kicking the moneychangers out of the temple, when we've got plenty of money changing hands in our temples. This isn't the biggest issue I have with the temple, or even close to it, but it is one thing that bothers me.
For me personally, no matter how beautiful the temple experience might be. I just see it as an opportunity to get away from the world and focus on worship. I don't see it as being required for our salvation. Like LH said above, I tried for years to make the temple a priority, but after 20 years of temple attendance (sometimes 2-3 times/week), I was never able to get past the weirdness of it all. I know for many people it's a beautiful place, and I completely respect that. I just have never been able to find peace there, even in my most TBM days.
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Heber13
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by Heber13 »

Holy Cow wrote:I completely understand how people enjoy going to the temple for the peaceful, quiet, focused experience. It can be hard to find that when you're outside of the temple, because of all the other distractions around us. But, I find the same experience when I take time to go searching for solitude in the forest.
I really do love that about the temple. The calm is so nice. Others smiling and quietly pondering God. It is a good feeling.
Holy Cow wrote:It feels a little hypocritical when we have the lesson on Christ kicking the moneychangers out of the temple, when we've got plenty of money changing hands in our temples.
I don't imagine temples in Christ's day started in a way that was offensive to God. It was only when it got out of hand that it was mocking to the Lord, and unacceptable. But I think I get your point, and many people I talk to share that feeling about it a little. It's just kinda weird to see the money in the temple when few scriptures talk about Christ and the temple, except about that very thing.

I still think the first step is to think about the doctrine of salvation before looking at what the temple practices are, in order to see what the temple really is about.

Handshakes may be one way to do things. Recommends from leaders with magnetic cards that swipe information is another way. Internet or cloudbased databases are another way. But the purpose was to link families. How it is done is irrelevant to me.

I like focusing on the feeling of quiet, peace, stillness, holiness.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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Shawn
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by Shawn »

What if the temple is not merely a harmless, symbolic way to learn more about the plan of salvation that is taught in the scriptures? This quote by Brigham Young is actually paraphrased in the temple:
Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell.
I “believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent” and “there is none other salvation.” I believe Jesus taught his doctrine in 3 Nephi 11 and said “whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil”.

Insofar as temples support scriptural salvation, it’s true that “temples fit into the belief on salvation,” like Heber said. However, we are not taught that temples are there just to support existing doctrine and ordinances; we are taught that additional ordinances are necessary to return to live with God. It seems we’re being taught, “The Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the scriptures is actually not enough. You also need to know ‘the key words, the signs and tokens’, make additional covenants, and wear garments throughout your life.”

I could be totally wrong. Maybe this really is the dispensation of the fullness of times wherein God has revealed higher ordinances and previous dispensations were not granted as much light and knowledge.

Here's the main point: I am concerned that going to the temple would mean I am denying that the atonement of Jesus Christ is enough to save me.
Roy
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by Roy »

Shawn wrote:Here's the main point: I am concerned that going to the temple would mean I am denying that the atonement of Jesus Christ is enough to save me.
I know what you mean Shawn. All Christians seem to agree that Christ gives us something that we need and that we can't get for ourselves. It is therefore up to Christ to determine who receives his saving gift and who does not.

He could save just those that He has predetermined through irresistible grace, or just the house of Israel, or the 144,000, or those that believe on his name, or those that are baptized, or those that receive the "higher" temple ordinances, or a thousand other different possibilities. Whatever His criteria or conditions, it is His right to apply His gift as He pleases.

Many claim to know exactly what Jesus requires and what he does not. If they are right then woe be unto those that do not take heed. If they are wrong then woe be unto those that follow after them.

I personally speculate the Jesus is more loving, forgiving, and generous than we might imagine and will look at the intent of the heart of each individual.

As long as we are talking about temples - one of the most beautiful doctrines is that well meaning people that die without taking any necessary steps to enter heaven can be given that opportunity post-mortem. Thus the only variable left is the intent of the heart.

This doctrine resonates with me. I am not convinced of the literal application, but the symbolism of love and second chances is powerful IMO.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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DarkJedi
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by DarkJedi »

Sorry, Shawn, I should probably know this. Have you been endowed? If so, you already have all you need to know. Returning to the temple is an opportunity to be reminded of the covenants, but I am unaware of any teaching that we must return.

At any rate, there are references to Christ in the temple. I don't think God or Christ are offended by our temple worship, however, like you I question the need because of the atonement. The more orthodox have no problems with this because they see it as part of "after all we can do" and generally fail to understand grace.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Heber13
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by Heber13 »

Roy and DJ gave good responses. I say Amen to that.

Also, for perspective, BY and John Taylor also said things about polygamy as necessary for exaltation. There is food for thought.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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Shawn
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by Shawn »

I really appreciate all the responses.
Roy wrote:All Christians seem to agree that Christ gives us something that we need and that we can't get for ourselves. It is therefore up to Christ to determine who receives his saving gift and who does not.
I sort of agree with you here. It could be that Christ revealed some things regarding salvation in past dispensations and then revealed more in this dispensation. I think it’s likely that conditions to receive the saving gift were established and applied to other planets eons ago, but that doesn’t necessary negate what you said.

If it is Christ who revealed temple ordinances and the Holy Ghost tells me so, then I will whole-heartedly accept them. The trouble is that I do not feel peace or comfort in the temple during the endowment session (I’ve had one good experience, but it can be attributed to being strangely emotional as a result of the discontinuation of a medication). I have felt great at several sealings, but I have felt the same at weddings outside the temple.
DarkJedi wrote:Sorry, Shawn, I should probably know this. Have you been endowed? If so, you already have all you need to know. Returning to the temple is an opportunity to be reminded of the covenants, but I am unaware of any teaching that we must return.
Yes, I was endowed about 17 years ago, and it’s totally okay that you didn’t know that :smile: . You are right, there are no teachings saying I must return, but I’m asking myself if I should be a member of a church that teaches the need for additional ordinances. Of course, I need to find my own answer.
Heber13 wrote:Also, for perspective, BY and John Taylor also said things about polygamy as necessary for exaltation. There is food for thought.
It would be awesome if some aspects of the temple went the way of polygamy and the priesthood ban.

Well, I'm going to chill out and stop worrying about this for now. I will await God's direction.
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