Salvation and Temples

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Shawn
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Salvation and Temples

Post by Shawn »

I am questioning the claim that temple ordinances are necessary for salvation and I am distraught.

The “Salvation” page in Gospel Topics says “In the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the terms ‘saved’ and ‘salvation’ have various meanings.” Here are two of those meanings:
Salvation from Sin. To be cleansed from sin through the Savior's Atonement, an individual must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost…

Eternal Life, or Exaltation…Eternal life is to know Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and dwell with Them forever—to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. This exaltation requires that men receive the Melchizedek Priesthood, and that all Church members make and keep sacred covenants in the temple, including the covenant of eternal marriage.
There’s all sorts of support in the scriptures and elsewhere for the first one. There is much less support for the second. Now consider what King Benjamin taught:
…I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God…if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God…

…but men drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent…

…if ye have come to a knowledge of…the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life…this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement…And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.
(Mosiah 2:41,3:18,4:6-8)
So he said there is really only one salvation, which is to be “received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God” and it is possible only “in and through the atoning blood of Christ.” I am having a difficult time believing that there is another type of salvation that requires temple ordinances. It seems bizarre that I would need “the key words, the signs and tokens” to pass “the angels who stand as sentinels” (you all know that quote by Brigham Young).

Paul warned about those who might “preach any other gospel” (Galatians 1:8). Sometimes I wonder if salvation through temple ordinances is another gospel.

Any thoughts?
Last edited by Shawn on 16 Feb 2016, 17:25, edited 2 times in total.
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Holy Cow
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by Holy Cow »

Shawn,
I share your questions about salvation through the temple. I can agree with the first definition, but I completely disagree with the second definition. There were no endowments, sealings, and tokens in Solomon's Temple, so why would it be a requirement in the temple now. If temple endowments and holding the priesthood were required for salvation, wouldn't the authors of the NT have said something about it? When I read these scriptures, I believe Christ was telling us that our bodies are the new temple:

1 Corinthians 3:16 - Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
2 Corinthians 6:16 - And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

After he came to the earth, his atonement made animal sacrifice a thing of the past (along with many other OT practices). I believe the work that was being done in the temple at the time was one of those OT practices that Christ fulfilled, and made possible for us to practice through HIM, rather than through the work of the priests/high priest at the temple.
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Old-Timer
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by Old-Timer »

I have said for a long time that I LOVE the temple and what it symbolizes, and that Mormonism wouldn't be as appealing to me without our temple theology, but I take none of it literally - and even Boyd K. Packet said it all is symbolic.

I am fine with literalists taking it literally, but I don't have to see it that way. I can define salvation in such a way that the temple is important to me relative to that definition, especially communal salvation and symbolic sealing of hearts - but I don't believe at all that the exact structure of the ordinances have an impact on salvation or an eternal nature, in and of themselves.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Ann
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by Ann »

Shawn - My thinking on the temple has changed a lot, so much that I wonder if I really have any business being there. But there is still beauty and familiarity in it. I recommend going to Ray's blog and reading through the "Temple" posts.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11
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DarkJedi
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by DarkJedi »

I agree, Shawn, I also doubt the need for the temple in our salvation. The symbolism and all is fine for those for whom it works. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm not at all sure baptism is required, either.

I can feel peace in the temple and they are certainly beautiful places.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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LookingHard
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by LookingHard »

Old-Timer wrote:I have said for a long time that I LOVE the temple and what it symbolizes
I wish I could feel that way about it. It has always felt to me to be odd and a huge expense for the church. As much as I have tried I have never once felt anything in the temple. It leads me to believe that either God is upset with me (don't feel that way really anymore, but did for decades) or some people just get excited about the beauty of it and what they feel it means. I travel quite a bit the last few years and I often am in really fancy hotels, so the temple does not "feel" so super beautiful to me. In fact even in the hotels I feel they are a waste and more should be spent helping those in real need.
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Heber13
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by Heber13 »

We should first study salvation and what we believe about that.

Then temples fit into the belief on salvation.

Temples and ordinances, like seer stones, are a vehicle to deliver necessary learnings from God.

One cannot determine truthfulness of the Book of Mormon by studying seer stones.

Like wise, you don't get a testimony of salvation by studying temples and temple ordinances.

We should not look past the mark.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
Old-Timer
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by Old-Timer »

LookingHard, I probably should have said I love the temple BECAUSE of what it symbolizes.

Individual salvation in a state of perpetual praise and no real growth just doesn't do anything for me. In fact, it is a pretty good description of damnation / Hell to me. Communal, familial salvation / exaltation and eternal progress (including on-going "work and glory") is a concept I absolutely love.

I see the temple as the physical, symbolic manifestation of that concept - and it helps that I love theater and see everything as a cosmic participatory play. I can overlook the outdated aspects for a number of reasons (or, rather, I can deal with them in peace for a number of reasons), including the number of changes I have seen in my lifetime that were a direct result of disconnects among active participants.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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nibbler
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by nibbler »

Some days I'm absolutely convinced that temple worship was one of the things that Jesus purposely came to put an end to and that including them as a part of the restoration was a huge mistake. Other days I compare old world temple symbology with latter-day temple symbology and the new symbols seem to resonate with elements of my nuanced faith in Christ. Right now I lean towards both. Go figure.
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Old-Timer
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Re: Salvation and Temples

Post by Old-Timer »

Great comment, nibbler.

As much as I love the temple theology, there absolutely are elements of how we use the temples that I don't like like very much (and that model a bit too closely the issues Jesus had with the way the temple was used in his day) - and there are elements that I believe need to be changed, including some of the endowment script.

It's not love/hate for me - but it is love/dislike.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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