Seer Stones - Ensign

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mom3
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Seer Stones - Ensign

Post by mom3 »

Well it's not the essay but it's a start.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/10/jose ... r?lang=eng
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman
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nibbler
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Re: Seer Stones - Ensign

Post by nibbler »

I saw that... and subsequently deleted my duplicate tread after seeing this one ;).

IMO this is a big step forward. The Ensign enjoys more readership than an unannounced essay on lds.org.

They've even got a picture of the chocolate colored (wanted to say chocolate covered) seer stone in the article.
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Holy Cow
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Re: Seer Stones - Ensign

Post by Holy Cow »

Wow! Robin Jensen, one of the contributors of this article was my trainer on my mission. Couldn't have asked for a better trainer. I'll never forget my first day when he asked me if I wanted to anoint my bike with oil to consecrate it for my mission. Then started laughing when I gave him a confused look. Or, when we knelt down for our first companion prayer and he started praying to Joseph Smith, then started laughing. :lol: He's a great guy, with a great sense of humor. Glad to see that this article is more open than most, and even includes some of the various artists depictions of how they perceive the translation process, rather than just the image that we typically see of JS translating directly from plates. Good stuff!
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DarkJedi
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Re: Seer Stones - Ensign

Post by DarkJedi »

After my surprise at the date subsided (I didn't know I was able to see the future! :P ) I read it and agree, it's another small step in the right direction. I wonder if this article is supposed to coincide with the reopening of the renovated Church History Museum. From what I understand, the new exhibits may be a bit more forthright than some past ones. Perhaps the pictured stone might even be on display?
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Old-Timer
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Re: Seer Stones - Ensign

Post by Old-Timer »

I love the fact that they place the traditional pictures in context - and that they show that the traditional pictures are not lies but merely misapplied. I have said that such an understanding is important, since Joseph did talk about copying some characters from the plates, for example, but the picture then was mistakenly used as a translation scene.

This is not a little step, especially being published in the Ensign.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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LookingHard
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Re: Seer Stones - Ensign

Post by LookingHard »

Holy Cow wrote:Wow! Robin Jensen, one of the contributors of this article was my trainer on my mission. Couldn't have asked for a better trainer. I'll never forget my first day when he asked me if I wanted to anoint my bike with oil to consecrate it for my mission. Then started laughing when I gave him a confused look. Or, when we knelt down for our first companion prayer and he started praying to Joseph Smith, then started laughing. :lol: He's a great guy, with a great sense of humor. Glad to see that this article is more open than most, and even includes some of the various artists depictions of how they perceive the translation process, rather than just the image that we typically see of JS translating directly from plates. Good stuff!
consecrated oil can stop the squeak in a chain if it is all you have (you already put your hands on the bike and pray) :)
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Heber13
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Re: Seer Stones - Ensign

Post by Heber13 »

My family came to me showing me this article they saw on facebook. They wanted to know if I had seen it. They started asking me questions about seer stones and the different paintings.

I appreciated the Ensign making this a safe thing to talk about without me sounding wierd or misinformed...instead...I was able to talk about it with them today well informed with stuff I had read several years ago and now the church is sharing it openly.

It was a good experience for my family. I appreciate the church doing this.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
Ann
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Re: Seer Stones - Ensign

Post by Ann »

I'm definitely following this thread. It wasn't a good experience - at least not initially - in our house. My seventeen-year-old was exasperated. Another weird thing to explain to herself and her non-member friends who appear, at least to her eyes, to have a more appealing and simple faith.

I'll read through the article with her today. Your advice welcome. :smile:
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11
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On Own Now
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Re: Seer Stones - Ensign

Post by On Own Now »

Ann,

the seerstone, to me, can be viewed as a physical aid to be used in divine communication. It's what made sense to him because of the times he lived in. People do a lot of things when trying to commune that might seem odd when viewed by someone else:

- using a rosary
- removing a hat
- closing our eyes
- facing Mecca
- folding our arms
- lighting a candle
- burning incense
- kneeling at the bedside
- holding a bible during prayer

In Judaism, reading from a specific scroll has been important... it's not just the words, but the scroll itself that has a role.

We go to locations that provide sacred context, mosque, chapel, temple, cathedral to enhance our ability to connect to another realm.

In the sacrament, communion, Lord's Supper, you know it is really just bread and water/wine, but they are also physical elements that help our frame of mind because we have decided for it to be that way.

If I feel that I am able to communicate with God better if I pray in the woods, then that's what I will do if I really need an answer.

Like all those elements, JS's seerstone can be viewed as an object to help him focus, but the subject is still communication.
- - -
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
- - -
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
- - -
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Heber13
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Re: Seer Stones - Ensign

Post by Heber13 »

Ann, sorry to hear it is causing your daughter some angst.

My advice is to go to LDS.org with her, and show her how to search for topics. Enter in: Urim and Thummim
An ancient instrument or tool prepared by God and used by Joseph Smith to aid in the translation of the Book of Mormon. God provided a Urim and Thummim to His prophets in ancient times (see Exodus 28:30; 1 Samuel 28:6; Ezra 2:63).
REad the scriptures quoted with her.

Hopefully, this takes away the weirdness factor as if it surrounded Joseph Smith, and instead teaches something about religion and God...throughout history...uses tools and always has. Moses spoke to a burning bush...these things seem to be common and accepted when we have heard the stories. It is just the shock of not hearing this about the Book of Mormon translation process very much.

In fact, to some faithful people, the fact Joseph used something that is referenced in the Old Testament is pretty cool...and validates his prophetic calling. Whether he knew about it from prior study of the Old Testament, or just was doing things and later found them consistent with the restorationist actions he was involved in, validated (albeit skeptically) by scripture...either way...it is a good thing it is in line with the bible stories, in my opinion.

This is religion. Few religions have the benefit of the LDS experience to see it develop in our backyard with prophets, scripture and revelation. The other religions read the scripture from long ago...and whatever the process to bring it about isn't ever in question because it always was there. But Mormonism can be scrutinized for how the revelation and scripture is coming forth. I find it fascinating it actually is in line with so many bible stories of how things work.

I would think any friends who say something about it should be reminded, like OON mentioned, all religions have it. I think it is good if you can prepare her to know she might respond...and then remind her she may never have any friends actually hear about it or care enough to bring it up, most likely.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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