Flashback to Proposition 8

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Sheldon
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Re: Flashback to Proposition 8

Post by Sheldon »

mom3 wrote:I know the first presidency signed the letters and initatives that got Prop 8 rolling. But I don't think he saw what was heading down the pike.
I know we've had this conversation before, and I know Ray will jump in, But why didn't our "Prophet, Seer, and Revelatory" see this coming? This was a big deal, and it hurt the church from a PR standpoint big-time in California. If there was ever a time that the Lord should be "revealing" something to his Prophet, you would think this would be it! Something as simple as "Pres Monson, this is going to end badly for the church, and SCOTUS will overthrow it anyway, so use your efforts for something else, like temples" If our Prophet can't receive revelation on the big things like this, what does that say for all the little things that have been "revealed" e.g. No more than two earrings, etc.
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Heber13
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Re: Flashback to Proposition 8

Post by Heber13 »

Sheldon wrote:why didn't our "Prophet, Seer, and Revelatory" see this coming?
I take from the scriptures many examples that show the prophet isn't a fortune teller to see what is going to happen, but is a mouthpiece for God on saying what God wants us to hear, sometimes despite what will happen.

In the story of Noah, the prophet was trying to spend resources for what he hoped would be best, even though the efforts were futile. And the Lord didn't stop him.

The big question is if the Lord told the prophets to get involved in Prop 8 and campaigns to keep marriage as ordained only for man and woman, or if that is coming from the prophets as products of their time using their greatest efforts to do what they think God wants them to :?:

How do we know if the prophet and the pope are using the same process or if there is a different access to revelation :?:

Is the judgment in our country in line with God's will or against it :?:

Does God care :?: ...I mean, the US government made law to get rid of polygamy and so the church changed. And things moved forward (in my opinion, for the better).

These events are fascinating to me to see unfold in our time.

There are lots of prophets doing what they were told to do, even when it was unpopular, didn't stand up over time, or didn't come true. Actually, way more examples of those than prophets who predicted historical events accurately. This is no different.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
Old-Timer
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Re: Flashback to Proposition 8

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[Admin Note]: Sheldon, you are correct; I am jumping in. :D

Don't EVER insult someone here directly with a back-handed swipe. I am not saying that because you swung at me; I am saying it because it is against one of our most important rules. We are a support community, so start supporting, to some small degree, at least.

There is nothing wrong with your comment, in this context, on this site. It is a sincere question and has merit. It's only problem is that you have asked it multiple times, in multiple threads, in almost the exact same, nearly cut-and-paste wording. You have had responses to that question from almost everyone here. You can continue to ask it, but don't act surprised or take swipes at us as you do so - and don't expect different answers than you have gotten multiple times previously. If you don't like the answers you get here, there are lots of places you can ask questions and get the answers you want; if we can help you and you can help us, we want you here.

Now I am jumping back out. :P
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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LookingHard
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Re: Flashback to Proposition 8

Post by LookingHard »

Old-Timer wrote:[Admin Note]: Sheldon, you are correct; I am jumping in. :D

Don't EVER insult someone here directly with a back-handed swipe. I am not saying that because you swung at me; I am saying it because it is against one of our most important rules. We are a support community, so start supporting, to some small degree, at least.
When I read this I re-read Sheldon's comment and I thought, "I think Ray is over-reacting - or maybe there is some history here." Then I read the following paragraph and it made more sense (as in Ray was warning, not (over) reacting.
Old-Timer wrote:There is nothing wrong with your comment, in this context, on this site. It is a sincere question and has merit. It's only problem is that you have asked it multiple times, in multiple threads, in almost the exact same, nearly cut-and-paste wording. You have had responses to that question from almost everyone here. You can continue to ask it, but don't act surprised or take swipes at us as you do so - and don't expect different answers than you have gotten multiple times previously. If you don't like the answers you get here, there are lots of places you can ask questions and get the answers you want; if we can help you and you can help us, we want you here.

Now I am jumping back out. :P
I will admit I am struggling a bit with what Sheldon expressed. I don't have an axe to grind against leaders as I fell most are very loving people doing their best. But I do struggle with how the church members give what I wonder is an inconsiderate amount of weight to their statements/points of views. I do see this has some encouragement from leadership - especially the higher up you go.
I too want folks like Sheldon here (which I love that character on TBBT) and I do want this to be a place where there are not personal squabbles.
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Re: Flashback to Proposition 8

Post by Old-Timer »

But I do struggle with how the church members give what I wonder is an inconsiderate amount of weight to their statements/points of views. I do see this has some encouragement from leadership - especially the higher up you go.

I too want folks like Sheldon here (which I love that character on TBBT) and I do want this to be a place where there are not personal squabbles.


Amen!
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Ann
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Re: Flashback to Proposition 8

Post by Ann »

I really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts about Presidents Hinckley and Monson.

I've had tearful kids on the end of my bed this week asking me what a prophet is, and whether a God who doesn't intervene when his prophet is dead wrong is really guiding this church by the hand. The blacks and priesthood essay broached the subject, but we need to have a get-real, open discussion at church. Aside from President Uchtdorf's one reference about mistakes being made - and, by implication, more mistakes could be made - has there been meaningful talk about this at church?

The church asks a lot of people. It expects a response when it calls its members to action ala Prop 8, and I think that, in spite of Prop 8, members still want to respond in a positive way to a prophet's call. It's one of our distinctive traits as a church, but church needs to be more of a judgment-free zone where we can talk about the mechanics of grown-ups following the prophet. Like, I think it would be interesting to discuss a line somewhere in Dallin Oaks' talks about the brethren giving counsel and members prayerfully determining if it applies to them. :shock:
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11
Roy
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Re: Flashback to Proposition 8

Post by Roy »

I was going to just ignore Sheldon's question (because I knew that he had a pretty good idea of his own answer) but now that it is starting to get interesting... ;)
Sheldon wrote:why didn't our "Prophet, Seer, and Revelatory" see this coming?
Because prophets usually can not see the future, do not speak face to face with God, or even really reveal anything.
LookingHard wrote:But I do struggle with how the church members give what I wonder is an inconsiderate amount of weight to their statements/points of views. I do see this has some encouragement from leadership - especially the higher up you go.
In reading RSR I was surprised at how much JS did not know. I did not think that prophets knew everything. But JS as the prophet of the restoration with frequent visits from heavenly messages, I assumed had been different - some sort of super prophet. Surely he knew what he was doing. If he ever faced a critical juncture he could just ask God and receive a revelation on the subject.

I like reading historical fiction about Joseph and Emma. I find it fascinating as a window into the stories that we tell ourselves. One scene in one story had Emma raging against JS for the death of yet another of their children. JS had healed so many - why was he prevented from healing his own children. Joseph held her and comforted her. He said something to the effect that if she could only gaze into heaven and see the purposes of God then she would understand.

I found the following assumptions interesting:

1) JS had the power to heal.
2) JS knew what was going to happen even if he was prevented from changing it.
3) JS understood why things were happening - as in God's purpose behind these things.

I also found it interesting that in the fictional account JS could not share this knowledge with Emma. She could only follow him, trusting that he was leading in the right direction because he had access to more divine knowledge and understanding than she did.

So bringing this back to the topic at hand. We, the membership up to and including the leadership, have created this expectation for our prophet. It brings a sense of security. I believe that it is a false sense of security but I am not sure that matters. Does a person's life need to be meaningful and impactful or at the closing up scene is it simply enough that that individual feels that it was? The stories that we tell ourselves - are they just delusions or are they the building blocks of our lives? :mrgreen:
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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nibbler
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Re: Flashback to Proposition 8

Post by nibbler »

Hinckley talked about the matter during the PH session of the October 1999 GC:

Why We Do Some of the Things We Do
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
— Steven Wright
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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Flashback to Proposition 8

Post by hawkgrrrl »

But why didn't our "Prophet, Seer, and Revelatory" see this coming? This was a big deal, and it hurt the church from a PR standpoint big-time in California. If there was ever a time that the Lord should be "revealing" something to his Prophet, you would think this would be it!
Here's a thought. Sometimes we learn a lesson before we make a mistake, and sometimes we learn a lesson because we make a mistake, and honestly, there are plenty of times that it's the only way we can learn. Now you can say "Hey, Pres. Monson shouldn't need to go through that to learn," but maybe it's also the church itself that needs to learn something from experience here.

Unfortunately, it seems to me (from my own vantage point) that it's the exact same lesson-learning cycle we went through with the civil rights movement. That's a bit discouraging.
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Sheldon
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Re: Flashback to Proposition 8

Post by Sheldon »

I think I’ve finally figured out what bothers me most. If the prophet says “X”, them almost all active members (present company excepted) will say that “X” is the Lord’s will, because the Prophet speaks for the Lord. This concept that the prophet speaks for the Lord is perpetuated by our leaders, both local and GAs. So when the Prophet said to back the Prop 8 campaign, for the general membership, this was marching orders from the Lord himself. When the Prophet says only two earrings for women, that is what the Lord wants, not the cultural learning of a man born 80 something years ago.

Attending church each Sunday (yes, I’m active!), I hear that we have a Prophet that can “guide us in these Latter Days” I hear that he does this because he can see in the future (Google the word seer). So every time I then see a quote like “I don't think he saw what was heading down the pike” I gets me going. I know our prophet cannot see in the future, and I think he would be the first to tell you that. But how do we get all the other leaders to stop perpetuating that ideal?

And finally, I’ll never again call out another person’s name from this board, so it will not be misconstrued as an insult. With the limitations of the written word, it is too easy to not convey the spirit with which the comment was made, so I’ll just not do it. I'm not a big fan of using the smilies :thumbdown:
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