Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
amateurparent
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Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by amateurparent »

Sambee wrote: "It is hard to argue with multiple studies and independent research." - No, it's not hard to argue with it. That's what science does. It's constantly arguing with itself, that's how it progresses. However, this idea (common though it is) belies what actually happens in laboratories. Results are "improved" on a regular basis and researchers are put under pressure from corporate/capitalist interests. There is also a kind of bullying orthodoxy in the scientific community which not only works against scientific progress, but would be quite at home in the worst forms of religion. You'd be surprised at the amount of personal insults which are traded between supposedly objective scientists.
Yes to all the above. Sciencific research is famous for its competitiveness, back biting, and pedagogical tyrants.
"Science and religion clash constantly. Eventually, science wins." - Again, an oversimplification. In one sense, science loses constantly. Witness the huge volume of obsolete theories, some of which had studies and research which supposedly supported them. Science loses all the time, and throws out the old ideas. It's also a human construct, meaning that it comes with all the problems of human society. Also, the fashionable notion that religion and science always contradict each other is one put out there by aggressive militant atheists. It's not quite true either. Western science is biased in a military-industrial direction by economic interests, meaning that some areas of research are underfunded, but others which are detrimental to society (such as more deadly weaponry) are overfunded.
Yes. It is an over-simplification. A blow-by-blow account would wear out my audience.

I love old medical and nursing textbooks and home medical guides. The ones published before the creation of antibiotics are amazingly frightening in their suggestions for care. My favorites are the ones published before germ theory. Reading through such books, medical progress is easy to see. Only through having such a long time view can the huge changes in between religion and health care be seen. The Pulitzer-prize winning The Emporer of All Maladies isn't a fast read, but it gives a blow-by-blow account of the history of cancer treatment. It showcases so many treatments that were wrong, yet continued due to egos and power. There is a long trail of horrific suffering and death that has preceded each of our current treatment regimens. And still, our current treatments are too often still of little use.

But, there has been progress.
Medication is improving, but as I say, there are numerous problems.

* By largely ignoring external factors in mental health, we take the onus off society and our rulers to improve our environment and our politico-economic system.
* The side effects of a lot of medication continue to be debilitating. Do depressed people want to become fatter? Impotent? Or to have a damaged liver or facial tics? Moreover does someone with depression really want MORE suicidal thoughts? That's what happens with some anti-depressants. Which could be said to defeat the point of them. Do you think any of these side effects make a person happier?
* Societal prejudice about mental illness is still massive.
* Because drug companies are run by the greedy, the pills are frequently overpriced, putting them out of reach of some people.
Nothing gets marketed unless money can be made. Research that isn't market driven takes 10-14 years to make its way from research to clinical practice. An intervention that has potential to make money is amazingly fast to be published, promoted, and pushed by an army of reps. In a perfect world, human suffering would be the reason for well-funded medical research. This is not that world.

I work at 7-8 different facilities located in different socio-economic areas. In the poorest areas, probably 25% of the patient population is on a antidepressant or anti-anxiety med. In an area of extreme wealth, I typically see 80-90% of patients on something for anxiety or depression. They should just add Prozac or Zoloft to the water system. SSRIs and SNRI are everywhere, but we talk about then as if using them is unusual.

My 15 yo daughter has a mild Aspergers. AND Tourette's syndrome. Want to talk about public perception and bias? Say the word Tourette's. Does she yell profanity.? No. Does she repeat everything you say.? No. She has a occasional shoulder shrug and an occasional yawn-like motion with her mouth. Tourette's is a syndrome --it has three components. Tics. OCD. ADHD. She takes medication for OCD and ADHD.

When she hit puberty, her tics went wild and she had trouble sleeping. Everything for tics is off-label use. Especially in the pediatric world. We went thorough 2 years of hell and psychotropic meds while her doc tried to figure this new problem out. Name a psych drug. There is a pretty good chance that she tried it during that time. Seraquel, lamictal, clomipramine, all the SSRIs .. All the SNRI. Weird blood pressure meds. Things that cause rashes that can kill you. One by one .. Titrate on one for 3 weeks. Increase dosages. Titrate off over 3 weeks. Try another med. It was horrible, debilitating, and extremely expensive.

For Tourette's and Aspergers, everyone is always trying to market a new non-medication intervention. There is a whole list of treatment options out there. We used to pursue such interventions until we found no difference other than a lighter wallet.

For our daughter's diagnoses, meds have been her best successes. In the end, we found something that worked for the OCD and ADHD with tolerable side effects. The tics and sleeping issues eventually went away on their own. All that effort, misery, and money was for nothing. Treatment isn't perfect, but she feels her life is better with meds than without.

And due to science's trump over religion, no one is trying to burn her at the stake.
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.
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Shawn
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Location: Utah

Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by Shawn »

amateurparent wrote:Science and religion clash constantly. Eventually, science wins. Every time . It is hard to argue with multiple studies and independent research. But before science wins, there is strife and angst and calls for miracles.
I think God affects miracles through science that we haven't discovered yet.
amateurparent wrote:The second part of this is why don't the meds work better? So many variables come into the chemistry.
We understand only a very small part of the human brain and anti-depressant drugs are still in their infancy. I suppose they are improving all the time. In my view, Prozac and Effexor have replaced real miracles far too soon and it sucks.
amateurparent wrote:People with Tourette's Syndrome used to be burned as being possessed by demons.
This is very, very sad. People have caused immeasurable suffering and it seems that God could have prevented it. How many children have been abused because "He that spareth his rod hateth his son" is written in the Bible? Why didn't God inspire Moses to teach the people to wash their hands to avoid disease while all that stuff about dietary restrictions was being promulgated? I know I should be grateful for what we know now, but I have become a cynic.
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Heber13
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Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by Heber13 »

Shawn wrote:I know I should be grateful for what we know now, but I have become a cynic.
That is how we survive as humans. If we are burned once, we learn from that and are more careful. It's natural.

Allow yourself to be a cynic.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
Minyan Man
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Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by Minyan Man »

Shawn, I too am sorry for what you're going through.
The only thing I want to add is:
1. Get a good Doctor that you trust & is willing to work with you as an equal partner. If the meds aren't working, he (or she) needs to know that & try something else.
2. Give the course of treatment suggested by your Physician a good effort.
3. Find out if there are support groups for what you're going through. Talking with others that are going through the same issues can be a great help. You can't be the only one going through this.

As I've stated in other posting, I'm an Alcoholic. I've gone through a treatment program & currently go to AA.
The fact that I have been able to stay sober & be happy, is a real miracle in my life. It didn't come through church or prayer. (I don't consider myself a very spiritual person.) It took time & effort (on my part) to get to this level of understanding. It was a complete surprise when it happened.
I hope you can find your miracle too.
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SilentDawning
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Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by SilentDawning »

I think cynics are good at risk management -- one of the topics I teach. Cynicism has saved my business "hinus" a few times over the last few years. Be cynical, but don't let it disturb your inner peace if you can help it.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
amateurparent
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Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by amateurparent »

Shawn:

I came across this article this morning and it made me think of you.

https://hpwritesblogs.wordpress.com/201 ... oject-com/

For me, it was a really poignant read. It made me remember a time when I was in the depths of grief.

If he article is not helpful for you, please know that it was sent with good intent.
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.
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mom3
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Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by mom3 »

AP - I needed that. For so many reasons I choose not to explain. Thank you.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman
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Shawn
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Location: Utah

Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by Shawn »

amateurparent, I noticed your post yesterday and I checked it out. Thanks for thinking of me.
amateurparent
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Joined: 19 Jan 2014, 20:43

Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by amateurparent »

Shawn:

It was my pleasure.

Mom3:

I'm glad it brought you some goodness.
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.
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SamBee
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Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by SamBee »

Amateur Parent, I notice you didn't address this ->
By largely ignoring external factors in mental health, we take the onus off society and our rulers to improve our environment and our politico-economic system.
I sincerely think that not only are social and environmental factors causing or triggering a lot of mental health problems, but that by medicating people, we are avoiding a number of issues that should be addressed.

Of course this makes $$$ for certain parties. Which leads us back to Square One... greed and corruption are two of the main contributors to a sick society. God forbid we address greed, we'll get condemned as Commies for saying it's not a good thing.

Don't think that all the West's "common" mental illnesses are universal across all societies and cultures. Different ones have different ones. Anorexia is virtually unknown in some parts of the world, for example.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."
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