Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 7602
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by SilentDawning »

amateurparent wrote:Holy Cow:
Miraculous healings are random and unrelated to how righteous we are. They are not earned. Usually, we are part of the 299,999. That is where we get enough experience to learn compassion and empathy. That is where we grow. And personally, I hate those learning opportunities.
This is where I stand right now. I no longer "expect a miracle". I don't rule them out either. But I don't expect them. You will never see me in shock like the Indian family AP described earlier.

I find that when I exercise faith in a specific outcome, I feel like I am sucking air through a straw. It feels empty, and it's often a recipe for doubt and disappointment. Much better to prepare for all eventualities, adapt to the ones that occur through risk management.

I feel for Shawn's plight. And find the Mission President's negative reaction to being asked if he was opining as a priesthood leader or as a man. He should have answered that question with a much better attitude than Shaw described.

There are times when our priesthood leaders show so little faith, it's doubt-creating in all the truth claims of our religion. Been there, on non-medical issues.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
User avatar
Holy Cow
Posts: 315
Joined: 10 Nov 2014, 17:07
Location: Las Vegas

Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by Holy Cow »

AP & SD:
I hope my post didn't sound like I believe people should ask for miracles over medication. I'm the last person who would sit and wait for a miracle. When I say that medications shouldn't always be a long-term solution, I mean that doctors should try to look for other alternatives for treating a patient when possible, rather than relying solely on medication. I get sick of the pill-pushing when there could be other things that could help a patient. I respect people's faith in blessings and prayer and such, but I wouldn't forgo medical help waiting for a miracle to happen.
My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6139
User avatar
Heber13
Site Admin
Posts: 7245
Joined: 22 Apr 2009, 16:37
Location: In the Middle

Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by Heber13 »

I don't think it is either miracles or medication, one or the other.

Medications are apart of our world now. Miracles, revelation, inspiration around those medications and other things in our world may still happen if you have faith.

Perhaps meds served some purpose in your life for some time, Shawn, but perhaps with side effects or dependencies or now they are no longer needed. Perhaps the new miracle is getting off them and having a clear mind and more knowledge of your condition to avoid continuing on meds that you shouldn't be on now.

Miracles cease when faith is gone. Faith is defining miracles.

Don't blame God for not fixing it, or for fixing it then not like the residual. God will help those who help themselves. You can move forward and find your path to peace. I don't believe you are beholden to a mission president's opinions from 16 years ago. You can only learn from it and move forward. Perhaps you learn you are pissed off, or sad about your condition, and that you won't ever let another priesthood leader tell you what is right for you that you want the personal revelation, whether he appreciates you questioning what he thinks is revelation or not. God wants you to be in charge of you. You can do this, buddy!
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
amateurparent
Posts: 952
Joined: 19 Jan 2014, 20:43

Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by amateurparent »

And when the SSRIs and SNRIs don't work, verify your vitamin D level is good. If that checks out, check out the old tricyclics like anafranil. Meds don't solve everything. They are a tool that can sometimes, for some people, help in some ways.
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.
User avatar
Heber13
Site Admin
Posts: 7245
Joined: 22 Apr 2009, 16:37
Location: In the Middle

Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by Heber13 »

amateurparent wrote:Meds don't solve everything. They are a tool that can sometimes, for some people, help in some ways.
Amen
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 7602
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by SilentDawning »

Holy Cow wrote:AP & SD:
I hope my post didn't sound like I believe people should ask for miracles over medication. I'm the last person who would sit and wait for a miracle.
I didn't think you were saying the first sentence in your post above at all, and I agree that miracles are unreliable, and often unfold on their own timeline. Miracles are certainly not reliable, and I will take dependence on my own hard work over relying wholly on a miracle any day. I do believe God is more likely to help me as I help myself, than he is to sit by and make my life all better by the wave of his hand.

Even when problems are dire and chronic.

This isn't to lessen the seriousness of Shawn's situation, either, more of a general statement about miracles.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 5682
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by SamBee »

amateurparent wrote: Science and religion clash constantly. Eventually, science wins. Every time . It is hard to argue with multiple studies and independent research. But before science wins, there is strife and angst and calls for miracles.
This is an idealistic notion of science.

"It is hard to argue with multiple studies and independent research." - No, it's not hard to argue with it. That's what science does. It's constantly arguing with itself, that's how it progresses. However, this idea (common though it is) belies what actually happens in laboratories. Results are "improved" on a regular basis and researchers are put under pressure from corporate/capitalist interests. There is also a kind of bullying orthodoxy in the scientific community which not only works against scientific progress, but would be quite at home in the worst forms of religion. You'd be surprised at the amount of personal insults which are traded between supposedly objective scientists.

"Science and religion clash constantly. Eventually, science wins." - Again, an oversimplification. In one sense, science loses constantly. Witness the huge volume of obsolete theories, some of which had studies and research which supposedly supported them. Science loses all the time, and throws out the old ideas. It's also a human construct, meaning that it comes with all the problems of human society. Also, the fashionable notion that religion and science always contradict each other is one put out there by aggressive militant atheists. It's not quite true either. Western science is biased in a military-industrial direction by economic interests, meaning that some areas of research are underfunded, but others which are detrimental to society (such as more deadly weaponry) are overfunded.

Medication is improving, but as I say, there are numerous problems.

* By largely ignoring external factors in mental health, we take the onus off society and our rulers to improve our environment and our politico-economic system.
* The side effects of a lot of medication continue to be debilitating. Do depressed people want to become fatter? Impotent? Or to have a damaged liver or facial tics? Moreover does someone with depression really want MORE suicidal thoughts? That's what happens with some anti-depressants. Which could be said to defeat the point of them. Do you think any of these side effects make a person happier?
* Societal prejudice about mental illness is still massive.
* Because drug companies are run by the greedy, the pills are frequently overpriced, putting them out of reach of some people.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."
Roadrunner
Posts: 890
Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 15:17

Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by Roadrunner »

Shawn wrote:Then my mission president call me and said, “Elder, you get on that medication.”
It seems that siding with the physician is generally a safe practice.  As a church leader I dont think I woukd ever tell someone other than to follow doctors orders or get a second opinion, regardless of a priesthood blessing.  Not knowing all the circumstances I understand the mission presidents directions.

My wife is on Prozac long term and while I dont love the idea we've spoken to multiple doctors about it and they agree it's the best solution.   My wife is a much healthier and happier person on the medication.  I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder and currently can control it through exercise.  People critize me that I'm addicted to exercise - maybe I am.  Doctors tell me some day I'll probably have to take an anti depressant.  I've had to accept the fact that my body has deficiencies that I'll have to treat with medication eventually. 

Nobody has said otherwise, but I want to point out that dependency is different than addiction.  Doctors recognize the difference but sometimes we dont.Sent from Samsung tablet
Old-Timer
Site Admin
Posts: 17243
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by Old-Timer »

The difference between dependency and addiction is important.

My son is dependent on insulin, not addicted to it. My mother is dependent on her schizophrenia medication, not addicted to it. My grandfather was addicted to Pepsi - truly addicted.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
youngadult22
Posts: 14
Joined: 12 Oct 2014, 21:09

Re: Miracles Have Ceased So Just Take Your Pills

Post by youngadult22 »

Shawn,

Sorry that that has been your experience with medication. I was completely against antidepressants for a long time and finally decided to try it out a couple years ago. I have experienced both the positive and negative effects of medication. When I first started taking meds, I was put on Zoloft which made me unbelievably nauseated for the first few days. A couple weeks in I had an extremely embarrassing side effect. Finally I was put on something else for several months which didn't seem to help with my depression. So, I was put on yet another medication. At that point, I hated going to the doctor/psychiatrist so much because it seemed like nothing was working. Finally, they put me on what I'm on now and which has helped immensely. My depression isn't completely gone, but it's helped a lot.

Best of luck to you - whether or not the solution is changing meds, seeing a counselor, or just hanging in there until you find what works for you. It took me 10 years to figure out what worked and finally be brave enough to try it.
Post Reply