Helmuth Hübener, Mormon Hero

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
User avatar
LookingHard
Posts: 2946
Joined: 20 Oct 2014, 12:11

Re: Helmuth Hübener, Mormon Hero

Post by LookingHard »

Old-Timer wrote:Remember, that flag was omnipresent at the time - a government mandate. I also have seen that image, and it is jarring, but it would have been there no matter what.

I am prone to cut the members and leaders there HUGE slack, even as I applaud and am amazed by Hubener's courage and conviction. When the choice appears to be cooperate or have your congregation shut down and possibly be killed, I am hesitant to cast blame of any kind.
I didn't say it quite so clearly, but I was hinting at the same sentiment. Also when the Nazi's started taking power the average person could not have seen where it was going to go. So at first it wasn't a big deal. Be nice to the new government even if you are not 100% on board (they probably were less vocal than the uber-conservatives in the US saying that Obama was going to run the US into the ground). As time went along it was probably either continue to walk the line of compromising or come out in opposition to the government and face SEVERE consequences - both individually and the church.
User avatar
Sheldon
Posts: 459
Joined: 14 Aug 2013, 13:44

Re: Helmuth Hübener, Mormon Hero

Post by Sheldon »

Old-Timer wrote:When the choice appears to be cooperate or have your congregation shut down and possibly be killed, I am hesitant to cast blame of any kind.
If we believe that our leaders are inspired, why didn’t God tell our leaders that Hitler was an evil man, and no amount of appeasement to keep our congregations open could compensate for the evils this man would commit in the coming years? Our church , and the Catholic church, come out smelling less that rosy in this mess.
Lookinghard wrote: Also when the Nazi's started taking power the average person could not have seen where it was going to go
This only works if you think our Prophet is an "average person". The church teaches us he is NOT average. How much slack to we cut the prophet for not foreseeing one of the worlds greatest genocides?
Old-Timer
Site Admin
Posts: 17243
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Helmuth Hübener, Mormon Hero

Post by Old-Timer »

hindsight is a wonderful luxury, especially when expectations don't match history.

Seriously, our scriptures describe prophets who led or supported wars that committed true genocide. Questioning the orthodox view of prophets is one thing (which we do regularly here), but rejecting ours while upholding Old Testament prophets is illogical, to say the least.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 7602
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Helmuth Hübener, Mormon Hero

Post by SilentDawning »

If this hasn't already been revealed. the church reversed the excommunication of Hubener after the fall of the Nazi regime. The local church may have excommunicated him to protect the saints that were in Germany, as groups that did not support the Nazi government (like Jehovah's Witnesses) were persecuted.

Just to highlight how sick the Nazi regime was, after Helmut was excommunicated, his family received a bill for his maintenance in prison.

This is one case where I hope history never repeats itself, where totalitatarian leaders like the Nazis get hold of our North American society and impose such heartless laws on us all.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
Roy
Posts: 7183
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Helmuth Hübener, Mormon Hero

Post by Roy »

Sheldon wrote:This only works if you think our Prophet is an "average person". The church teaches us he is NOT average. How much slack to we cut the prophet for not foreseeing one of the worlds greatest genocides?
One of the things that I've had to change is my view on prophets. In reading RSR it became apparant to me that JS did not know what was going to happen. I currently do not believe that JS or any of our LDS prophets have been able to accurately predict the future. Looking back I am not sure that any prophet ever has. I believe that TSM is our legally apointed administrative head. I do not believe that he knows things through supernatural means.

It is perhaps a different issue that the church through both formal and informal channels seems to teach that he does (know things through supernatural means).
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Post Reply