Does God really take the 61 cents?
Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?
Orson that is brilliant. I have copied and pasted it. Thank you.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview
"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman
"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman
Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?
Thanks mom3, and I just realized one possible point of misunderstanding. I don't see salvation in this context as an eternal reward, I see it as more of an eternal opportunity. The love and grace is a gift, the process of eternal progression is our riding the bike or using the gift.
My avatar - both physical and spiritual.
I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?
I think this is why Pres. Uchtdorf talked about why we keep the commandments (because we love God) in his talk. If indeed grace is a totally free gift and we know that, there would seem to be no reason to keep the commandments. (Some Protestant churches essentially teach this concept - if you're saved, you're save no matter what you do.) I understand Uchtdorf's teaching about that and it's pretty much why I was not lazy or sinful during my time away. To me there's little reason to keep the commandments without doing so for the right reason, because you want to and because you love God. Any other reason is Pharisaical - keeping them for the sake of keeping them and to be seen keeping them. This idea is partly why the strict obedience mantra bothers me so much.nibbler wrote:I agree, that's certainly the risk. If the daughter knew ahead of time that her dad was going to step in and pay for the bike not putting in any effort to obtain the bike could make for a very big temptation.
I think a lot of the debate comes from our inability to understand god's justice. We are all imperfect and some of this probably starts to look like:
There were things that I wanted to do in life but I'm trying to gain god's favor. I'm going to do what god wants instead at great personal sacrifice.
My neighbor is doing what they want to do. If they want to be saved like me they should have to "suffer" by sacrificing their will at the altar. If they don't sacrifice their will to the degree that I am sacrificing mine and they are still saved then the whole process starts to look unfair. I could have done some of my will and I still would have been saved.
Probably an oversimplification.
I don't profess to be a scriptorian and understand the parables. Actually, I think the parables have multiple meanings and not just for believers as opposed to unbelievers - I think believers can have different understandings (or multiple understandings) of many scriptural references and be correct on all counts. I have always understood the day laborers to be about grace, actually. In some ways I think the laborers who labored all day are very much like the prodigal son's older brother - there working all this time, etc. While the ones who came at the end of the day aren't exactly prodigals (but they could be), the others would seem to have every right to be question why they should get the same pay. But they don't have that right - grace applies to all of us equally. A lifelong member of the church, even an apostle or prophet, really has no advantage over the 90-year-old who lived a "life of sin" and was baptized close to death - because of grace. One view of that parable is that's it's not fair they all get paid the same. That question of fairness is about justice. The parable is about mercy. Generally speaking I think most people want justice for everyone else and mercy/grace for themselves.The day laborer parable comes to mind when I start thinking of the eternal works vs. grace debate. As should be obvious, I still have a little trouble understanding that parable.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?
Generally speaking I think most people want justice for everyone else and mercy/grace for themselves.
Yep. Humans are wonky that way.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?
I think I'm basically with you that the reason we strive to live the commandments is love/grace. There is the added benefit of personal growth. Saying "there is no reason to keep the commandments if grace is a free gift" appears extremely short-sighted to me and we do hear that a lot which is a frustration to me. I love the analogy of the bicycle, and this argument sounds to me like "if the bicycle is a free gift then there is really no reason to learn how to ride it."DarkJedi wrote:I think this is why Pres. Uchtdorf talked about why we keep the commandments (because we love God) in his talk. If indeed grace is a totally free gift and we know that, there would seem to be no reason to keep the commandments.
My avatar - both physical and spiritual.
I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?
It would also be false to assume that protestant churches just teach belief and salvation. In my participation in non-LDS churches I have heard the analogy that being saved is like going to Disneyland. Some just get in and then take a seat just inside the main gate. They are content just to "get in" but are denying themselves of all the joys and privlidges of entry.
I have also seen the following scripture applied: 1 Corinthians 3
Many Christian churches use some variation of the phrase "living a full life in Christ" to describe this more advanced, fulfilling, and rewarded lifestyle.
How do we ride the rides of metaphorical Dinseyland?
How do we build a work that endures the fire?
Ho do we live a full life in Christ?
I am thinking of Orson learning to ride his shiny new bicycle.
I have also seen the following scripture applied: 1 Corinthians 3
So if the work endures the fire the builder is rewarded. If the work is consumed the builder is still "saved." Therefore there is some form of reward beyond being saved.9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Many Christian churches use some variation of the phrase "living a full life in Christ" to describe this more advanced, fulfilling, and rewarded lifestyle.
How do we ride the rides of metaphorical Dinseyland?
How do we build a work that endures the fire?
Ho do we live a full life in Christ?
I am thinking of Orson learning to ride his shiny new bicycle.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13