Does God really take the 61 cents?

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Ilovechrist77
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Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?

Post by Ilovechrist77 »

Old-Timer wrote:Yes, he takes our 61 cents, because we offer it to him and he rejects no good faith offer. We give what we can, which isn't enough but is enough. He saves us prior to, during and after the giving, because it isn't the gift that is important but simply the giving.

At least, that is my take right now. As with everything else, I reserve the right to find a description that works better for me In the future.
That is beautiful, Ray. That's how I believe the atonement or Christ's grace works for us all. :smile:
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LookingHard
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Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?

Post by LookingHard »

Old-Timer wrote:Yes, he takes our 61 cents, because we offer it to him and he rejects no good faith offer. We give what we can, which isn't enough but is enough. He saves us prior to, during and after the giving, because it isn't the gift that is important but simply the giving.

At least, that is my take right now. As with everything else, I reserve the right to find a description that works better for me In the future.
I like that framing.
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nibbler
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Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?

Post by nibbler »

Here's where the parable breaks down for me: "if she can save the money she can get one"

The father gives his daughter the impression that she is capable of doing it on her own. That's not the way the atonement is taught.

I mentioned this in some other thread. When Jesus performed the miracles where he fed the masses he simply asked his disciples for the provisions that they had on them, he was able to bless those and feed the multitudes. Jesus didn't impose a minimum quota. There was no appreciable period of time where people operated under the stress of acquiring enough bread and fish for Jesus. After all they could do represented a small snapshot in time. Everything they could do had already been done, Jesus performed a miracle.

In the 61 cents parable I suppose the dad could have asked "How much have you got on you right now?" accepted that offering and then blessed the effort by providing the remainder to purchase the bike. In the modified version the girl already knows that she can't buy a bike on her efforts alone but the key difference is that she doesn't spend her childhood wallowing in despair. Remember, all this time she's struggling to come up with the money to purchase the bike herself she has no idea whatsoever that the father plans to step in and take care of the balance. She's operating under despair that somehow raising the money is all on her. If she's incapable of raising all the money herself she's doing something wrong (sound familiar?). Again, I don't think that's how we teach the atonement.
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Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?

Post by Old-Timer »

I agree, nibbler - but if everyone was told they could have whatever they want with no effort many would make no effort - and, imo, it is the growth that matters, not the size of the offering itself. I think that is what the story is trying to say, in the end.

The 61 cents isn't a perfect analogy for me, if every detail is analyzed and dissected - but nothing else is, either. I'm okay with a message that says we do what we can, no matter how little that is, and God makes up the difference. I think the key is what you and Pres. Uchtdorf have said - that we shouldn't be guilt-ridden about our best effort and that we aren't saved or aided or loved or accepted only AFTER we have exhausted ourselves in the doing.
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Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?

Post by Old-Timer »

If grace was an easy thing for everyone to understand, it would have been settled at some point during the last 2,000 years. :P
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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nibbler
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Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?

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Old-Timer wrote:I agree, nibbler - but if everyone was told they could have whatever they want with no effort many would make no effort - and, imo, it is the growth that matters, not the size of the offering itself. I think that is what the story is trying to say, in the end.
I agree, that's certainly the risk. If the daughter knew ahead of time that her dad was going to step in and pay for the bike not putting in any effort to obtain the bike could make for a very big temptation.

I think a lot of the debate comes from our inability to understand god's justice. We are all imperfect and some of this probably starts to look like:

There were things that I wanted to do in life but I'm trying to gain god's favor. I'm going to do what god wants instead at great personal sacrifice.

My neighbor is doing what they want to do. If they want to be saved like me they should have to "suffer" by sacrificing their will at the altar. If they don't sacrifice their will to the degree that I am sacrificing mine and they are still saved then the whole process starts to look unfair. I could have done some of my will and I still would have been saved.

Probably an oversimplification.

The day laborer parable comes to mind when I start thinking of the eternal works vs. grace debate. As should be obvious, I still have a little trouble understanding that parable. :smile:
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Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?

Post by NightSG »

Old-Timer wrote:I'm okay with a message that says we do what we can, no matter how little that is, and God makes up the difference.
And that is exactly the message I feel that so many have lost; He never promises something for nothing, only that our honest efforts will be rewarded, no matter how far short they fall, if we have persisted and tried with all our hearts to do what is required of us.
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DarkJedi
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Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?

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Processing.... There doesn't seem to be a clear definition of what role "all we can do" plays, and I'll throw in that all I can do is probably different from all you can do. That somewhat complicates things more, though, because why should one be held to a higher standard than another when grace applies to all? I'm sure this is also complicated because the LDS bent is included - there are Protestant churches that teach we don't have to do anything but believe (and I'm not sure they are wrong).
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Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?

Post by Roy »

FWIW, I prefer the bank account analogy from the same book. At some point the infinite bank account of Jesus is merged with our own. Our lifetime savings and overdraft fees are swallowed up by his eternal balance.

There are two perspectives both equally valid.

On one hand - those with a negative balance got a great deal. They knew that they were deficient and not even keeping their head above water. They are humble and their gratitude is full.

Some believe that if these individuals do not fulfill some minimum of effort then God will leave them in their state.

OTOH - Those that had socked away quite a nest egg also got a great deal. And yet they were doing pretty well on their own (relative to other mortals anyway). They may struggle with pride and it not being fair. Why should those that had negative balances be in the same boat as someone that had ammassed so much.

Some believe that this preoccupation with pride and fairness precludes the operation of the atonement at all - leaving the rich man to his riches but denying him the infinite heavenly treasure trove.

Is the poor man better off because of his humility, gratitude, and acknowledged dependance on divine grace? Is the relatively rich man better off for his development of his time and talents while in mortality? Will the same skills that came into play in saving for retirement transfer to being a good steward "over many things"?

I believe that the answers to these questions differ depending on how one perceives the purpose of life and imagines the continuation of life in the heavenly sphere. There are certainly scripures that could support either position.
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Orson
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Re: Does God really take the 61 cents?

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Old-Timer wrote:...if everyone was told they could have whatever they want with no effort many would make no effort - and, imo, it is the growth that matters, not the size of the offering itself.
Growth is what matters, and in my ideal world a main message would be that the intersection of "whatever they want" and "no effort" is the empty set. "No effort" will never yield anything of value or anything to be desired. It goes along with the law of opposition, we only appreciate being filled because we've known hunger, light is only meaningful with the context of darkness etc. Anything that just comes to us will not have the same meaning as something we obtain through struggle. This is why I am so much more interested in gospel topics today than in my younger years.

With that point as a backdrop, my preference would be to talk about the atonement more in the way that Adam Miller does, that God's grace is complete and always present. I imagine he would say the bicycle is already there waiting for us, we just need to discover it and come to know that we are in fact the rightful and intended owner. The process of that discovery will likely be very different for each of us, but to relate it to the 61 cents: yes, God will take and appreciate our offering, but it wasn't the 61 cents that enabled the gift of the bicycle.

Yes, the idea is paradoxical, that we can only appreciate things after a struggle - yet God's love and grace is eternal (without beginning or end) and we cannot struggle to "earn" it. The struggle, at least in part, must be our efforts to understand and recognize God's ever present and infinite grace. We must overcome the tendencies of the natural man to put boundaries or limitations on God, to feel we can partner, and thus become entitled to an origination ownership stake in the saving grace. We don't realize that it's pride that drives us to claim a particle of our salvation through the channels of justice.

Yes God takes the 61 cents. I believe it is a token of our love and appreciation, for when we truly understand the love that God's grace grows out of (which we only get a glimpse of in mortality) it is our desire to return that love to the best of our capacity. ...but the "bicycle" was already there for us, the money didn't help purchase it. Our desire, our striving, our love, helped us realize the bicycle was right there for us all along.
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