Question about prophetic fallibility

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DarkJedi
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Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by DarkJedi »

nibbler wrote:If I try to get at the heart of the matter my issue isn't with people putting their trust in the arm of flesh (at least not in this case), my real issue is probably with people policing other people's beliefs. It's just that the subject of prophetic fallibility lends itself to this sort of policing, and the policing can occur on both ends. I know I've certainly been guilty of that... from both sides. :oops:
I have definitely been guilty of being both the prodigal son and his brother when I should more often be the father.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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nibbler
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Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by nibbler »

Gotta be a son before you can be a father. ;)
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
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bridget_night
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Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by bridget_night »

The problem I have is that some of the stuff Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other prophets did, we would get excommunicated for, and they did not.
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nibbler
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Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by nibbler »

There are a few ways of looking at that.

Holding ourselves to a higher standard is probably a good thing.

If they are shoe-ins for the CK then what does that make us? ;)
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
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Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

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Times change, Bridget.

We want them to do so, so we can't argue about it happening. We might complain about some specific changes, but people really can be judged only in light of their times.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Roy
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Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by Roy »

Just found an awesome treasure trove of quotes on prophetic fallability. I was going to copy some of them into our quotes section but they just kept coming and I am lazy. READ THE COMMENTS!

http://latterdayspence.blogspot.com/201 ... -myth.html
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Roy
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Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by Roy »

bridget_night wrote:The problem I have is that some of the stuff Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other prophets did, we would get excommunicated for, and they did not.
Hi Bridget,

A major part of this is to understand that moral standards change with time. We might want to say that what is right has always been right but such does not seem to be the case. I read a book about a massacre of chinese immagrant miners in Oregon about the same time that BY was in power. I was completely shocked at how communities treated the chinese (up to and including burning their homes and expelling them or in some cases killing them). This was not just the outlaws that were doing this. In many cases it seems to have been instigated and supported by the community leadership. I wonder how the aftermath of MMM might have gone differently if Chinese immagrants or Mexican settlers or American Indians had been the victims. It was a VERY different time.

But what about polygamy? That may have been part of the times for Abraham and Isaac but not for JS. For me that rests with the charismatic leadership of JS. I just finished taking a college course on leadership. according to the text, "the charismatic leader's expertise lies in using unconventional means to transcend the existing order... behavior of the charismatic leader is unconventional and counter to the norm"

The qualities of charismatic leaders are:

Vision (disatisfaction with the status quo and strong drive for a different future)
Communication Skills
Self-confidence and moral conviction (believing that you are right at all hazards)
Ability to inspire trust
High risk orientation "charismatic leaders romanticize risk"
High energy and action orientation
Relational power base "There is a powerful identification with and emulation of the leader and an unquestioning acceptance of and affection for the leader." Power not based on position.
Minimum Internal Conflict (do not tend to second guess themselves) "Because of this conviction, they experience less guilt and discomfort in pushing followers to stay the course even when faced with threats."
Ability to empower others (Priesthood councils might have been the key to the churches survival/growth. JS was able to empower others and build a following that did not know and associate with him personally.)
Self promoting personality

So with JS we cannot attribute all his behavior to just "the times" that he was living in because in many ways he was bucking the trend and "boldy going where no man had gone before." :mrgreen: Yet without these charismatic leadership qualities he would likely not have been successful in setting up a church. IOW pushing/callenging/violating social norms was part of what made him great.

In general I agree with your premise Bridget. If God considers such mistake/moral failing prone individuals to be his servants and friends then He might be much more flexible and everlastingly forgiving then we might imagine from our modern LDS framework.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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nibbler
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Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by nibbler »

I agree that morals are relative to our environment. That said I find it interesting that the early saints did their best to keep polygamy a secret... at least until they segregated themselves in the shadows of the everlasting hills. That would lead me to believe that the people practicing polygamy didn't consider it kosher even in their day, otherwise why be so secretive?

I'll attempt to answer my own question. If morals are determined relative to our environment we could take it a step further, our environment could consist of the age in which we live, our local community, or even exist entirely in the mind of the individual.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
— Steven Wright
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Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by Old-Timer »

our environment could consist of the age in which we live, our local community, or even exist entirely in the mind of the individual.
There is SO much in that last part that deserves consideration and discussion - and, imo, it lies at the very heart of grace, mercy, charity and the Gospel as I understand it.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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Sheldon
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Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by Sheldon »

OK, let’s change this around a little, can anybody name a major prophetic pronouncement by a modern prophet that came true? I’m not talking about the general talk that we hear from our 15, but honest prophecies that foretold an event that was not anticipated. Old Testament like prophecies!
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