Question about prophetic fallibility

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
dash1730
Posts: 295
Joined: 17 Oct 2009, 14:21

Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by dash1730 »

Has anyone assembled a list of examples of prophets making mistakes despite their divine calling? I want to prepare a list of examples found both in canonized scriptures as well as latter-day history. I suspect someone has already assembled such a list. I have no need to reinvent the wheel if it is already done.

I don't see this as a distraction from the critical role apostles and prophets have. Such a list would be useful to demonstrate that the Q15 have a stewardship for managing a church of 15+ million people, which is different than the stewardship of each individual for stewardship of his/her selves and their families. I believe they should be listened to and then each individual must decide how to apply that guidance in his/her own stewardship. This will be useful for the upcoming PR lesson #11, I think, on following the prophet
I may not walk the straight and narrow, but I try to cross it as often as I can.
---J Golden Kimball
GBSmith
Posts: 975
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 08:51

Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by GBSmith »

Wilford Woodruf blessing people that the would live to see the second coming. John Taylor and his reported revelation of the Savior and JS coming to him and telling him that polygamy would never be discontinued. Joseph Fielding Smith saying that man would never walk on the moon and that the church's position on evolution is that "it is a great fake". Henry D. Moyle bringing the church to near insolvency with his programs that led to inflated and fraudulent baptisms and over building of chapels. Franklin D. Richards and his insistence that the Martin and Willys companies just needed to have faith and they'd be fine. JS and polygamy.
User avatar
nibbler
Posts: 5027
Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 07:34
Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by nibbler »

I don't have a list but I'll try to come up with a few. I won't really focus on the modern guys so much, fish in a barrel, and it might cause people to stop listening. Not that the modern guys were exceptionally bad people but could you imagine if we lived within 150 years of "Isaiah" and had access to his journals and the journals of his closest friends.

Jonah - This one is interesting to me. God calls Jonah to preach in Nineveh. Not only does Jonah flee, he heads in the opposite direction. Jonah admits wrongdoing aboard the ship. Here's where it gets interesting, he is swallowed by a fish and while inside the fish he repents. One might argue that he was coerced to obey, I get a real angel with a sword vibe from the experience, but it does give Jonah a second chance. Jonah gets upset that the people of Nineveh repented, he wants to see the judgments leveled against the people but is upset at god's mercy. The book even ends on Jonah getting rebuked. Fallible. I love the book because it shows how god is trying to help Jonah grow. It's the story of the stubborn Jonah becoming more godlike.

Moses - He wasn't allowed to lead the Israelites into the promised land. Maybe it was because he hit the rock with his staff as opposed to speaking to it, here's what god said:
Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
It sounds like Moses was getting a little haughty toward the end, maybe placing a little too much emphasis on his position as leader of the people rather than deferring to god. Interpretations vary.

----------

I'd caution making this too big of an issue. I think every member out there would agree that prophets are fallible, meaning that they are not perfect and capable of sin. I think the "never lead you astray" comment comes from a different place:
1) I think the orthodox view is that while a prophet is capable of sin they are largely free of serious sin.
2) They've mostly separated behaviors from proclamations. To put it another way, prophets sin in their behaviors but their teachings are perfect.

Another thing that works against moving toward a balanced approach... a black and white mindset can create an all or nothing environment. God, the church and her servants, and the gospel are all the same thing. To call one facet into question is to call the whole into question. Besides, it's a lost argument from the onset should people believe that the prophet only repeats verbatim what god is telling them. This goes back to the notion that a prophet can be an imperfect person but have perfect teachings.

In my mind there are a few quotes that need to be worked around:
The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff wrote:The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place.
Heber J. Grant wrote:My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.
D&C 138:44 wrote:Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;
These form the safety net for exactly the sort of thing that troubles us.

People really, really have their defenses up on this subject. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm sure it has to be gentle, meek, and long-suffering with love unfeigned.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
— Steven Wright
Roy
Posts: 7183
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by Roy »

The following quotes may come in handy.
“The burdens which roll upon me are very great. My persecutors allow me no rest, and I find that in the midst of business and care the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Although I was called of my Heavenly Father to lay the foundation of this great work and kingdom in this dispensation, and testify of His revealed will to scattered Israel, I am subject to like passions as other men, like the prophets of olden times” (History of the Church, 5:516).

In a sermon preached a little over a month before he was martyred, he declared, “I never told you I was perfect—but there is no error in the revelations which I have taught” (The Words of Joseph Smith, ed. Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook [1980], 369).

“He said he was but a man and they must not expect him to be perfect,” an associate recorded. “If they expected perfection from him, he should expect it from them, but if they would bear with his infirmities and the infirmities of the brethren, he would likewise bear with their infirmities” (The Papers of Joseph Smith, Volume 2, Journal, 1832–1842, ed. Dean C. Jessee [1992], 489).
As Nibbler stated these do support imperfect prophetic behavior HOWEVER, they also seem to reaffirm the correctness of the doctrine.

This does not appear to be a battle that can be won.
dash1730 wrote:ch a list would be useful to demonstrate that the Q15 have a stewardship for managing a church of 15+ million people, which is different than the stewardship of each individual for stewardship of his/her selves and their families. I believe they should be listened to and then each individual must decide how to apply that guidance in his/her own stewardship.
You may be more successful focusing on the idea that prophetic counsel is for the church generally and that "individual adaptation" should be applied to personal circumstances. While there may be varying interpretations, only the most extreme hardliners would oppose using any personal judgement/revelation in how to apply the prophet's words to individual circumstances.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
User avatar
nibbler
Posts: 5027
Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 07:34
Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by nibbler »

You might have a better time of making the same points but in talking about the dangers of blind obedience. I think that's something many people can agree with. I know I go to this quote frequently but:
Brigham Young wrote:I do not wish any Latter Day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ,—the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. I wish them to know for themselves and understand for themselves.
I've talked with a few people on this point and from what I've heard back one mindset is that the prophet enjoys a "pre-approved" status of sorts just by virtue of being a prophet. I.e. I know he's a prophet, so what he says must be true. One approach you could take would be to get people to seek spiritual confirmation of his teachings on a case by case basis. It could be framed as something that people view as positive like not being lazy about developing a testimony, not blindly obeying, or seeking to understand god's will better by using a point by point approach.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
— Steven Wright
Old-Timer
Site Admin
Posts: 17243
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by Old-Timer »

Personally, I would approach this as a chance to teach correct principles and have people govern themselves. Any other approach is a potential landmine, imo.

In other words, I would be very careful of providing specific examples and focus more on the idea that all of us are mortal and subject to the limitations of mortality. I might open up a conversation about instances in my life when I felt prompted to do something differently than the general counsel to the overall membership - and I can think of a few that are innocuous enough to make the point without causing a firestorm. I might then ask others if they have examples in their own lives where they felt prompted to act differently than the general counsel for the overall membership.

If I wanted to make the point from a more orthodox perspective, I might quote from Elder Oaks' talk "Two Lines of Communication" - since he said in crystal clear terms that too many members want to rely on leaders for their personal decisions and that individual members are entitled to revelation for their own lives. (There is a summary of that talk in a lesson I taught my Sunday School class. Search out archives for the title, if you are interested to see how I framed it for them.)
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Roy
Posts: 7183
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by Roy »

dash1730 wrote:This will be useful for the upcoming PR lesson #11, I think, on following the prophet
For clarification - are you teaching lesson #11?

If you are then you will have greater freedom to direct the course of the meeting.

If not then adding more than one or two thought provoking questions could be seen as hijacking the lesson.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
User avatar
LookingHard
Posts: 2946
Joined: 20 Oct 2014, 12:11

Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by LookingHard »

Roy wrote:
dash1730 wrote:This will be useful for the upcoming PR lesson #11, I think, on following the prophet
For clarification - are you teaching lesson #11?

If you are then you will have greater freedom to direct the course of the meeting.

If not then adding more than one or two thought provoking questions could be seen as hijacking the lesson.
There is quite a bit about lesson #11 and how the "14 fundamentals of following the prophet." If that is what you are looking for, I have it on my todo list to look these all up in preparation for that lesson being giving in HPG. From SWK being ticked at ETB, ETB being called in front of the Q12 for giving the talk (which from what I have read, ETB didn't seem to care what his fellow apostles thought - they told him to back off the John Birch society and he turned around and published something that the average lay member would assume was an endorsement from the church).
dash1730
Posts: 295
Joined: 17 Oct 2009, 14:21

Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by dash1730 »

Thanks guys for some excellent comments. The comments are great and those with references are even better. I've scanned Dalin Dalin Oaks' "Two Lines of Communication" talk is excellent. I want to spend some more time studying it in depth. My intent with starting this thread is to have resources readily available for to answer, the concerns of others and for either teaching HP Lesson # 11, or have some useful questions in class to get some thinking going (with hopefully not high-jacking the lesson.) If I can't feel comfortable with the subject, I'll be AWOL that Sunday. In any case I will be adding these thoughts to my collection.
I may not walk the straight and narrow, but I try to cross it as often as I can.
---J Golden Kimball
User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 5682
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Question about prophetic fallibility

Post by SamBee »

# Noah, built the ark, then went off and became drunk, got involved in bad things.

"And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him." (Genesis 9)

# Moses "And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand." (Exodus 2)

# David, wrote the Psalms, then came along that Uriah and Bathsheba business. (2 Samuel 11)
# Doubting Thomas (John 20)
# Peter denies Christ three times (in every Gospel)
# Paul was a persecutor of Christians originally.
# Joseph Smith went and lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon.

These are three examples I can think of which are
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."
Post Reply