Doubting - Meridian Magazine

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mom3
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Doubting - Meridian Magazine

Post by mom3 » 02 Mar 2015, 22:33

Last week I brought us the exciting article on Doubting from the Ensign. Tonight I bring you Doubting from Meridian Magazine. Feel free to weigh in. For the record, this one's my keeper.

http://ldsmag.com/doubt-doesnt-have-to-be-dangerous/
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Ann
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Re: Doubting - Meridian Magazine

Post by Ann » 02 Mar 2015, 23:41

Sure wish the Ensign printed articles like this one.
....this is one way of thinking about doubt, as a prompt that both marks the limits of rational understanding and beckons us to bring other human faculties to bear on life’s most urgent matters.
This rings true to me. What a relief to be using more of my faculties now.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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DarkJedi
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Re: Doubting - Meridian Magazine

Post by DarkJedi » 03 Mar 2015, 08:42

Thanks for sharing, Mom. I do wonder why the Ensign has not commissioned an article by the Givens, it would seem so beneficial to so many.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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LookingHard
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Re: Doubting - Meridian Magazine

Post by LookingHard » 03 Mar 2015, 09:47

DarkJedi wrote:Thanks for sharing, Mom. I do wonder why the Ensign has not commissioned an article by the Givens, it would seem so beneficial to so many.
Hmmm. Interesting. I may very well send in that as a suggestion to the Ensign and mention how the few recent "doubt" articles may feel good to TBM's, but would do nothing for someone in the middle of a FC.
I might do that. I will report back if I send it in. I might just give the details so if others also want to suggest this, we could do a small flood to get some attention.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Doubting - Meridian Magazine

Post by DarkJedi » 03 Mar 2015, 10:01

LookingHard wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:Thanks for sharing, Mom. I do wonder why the Ensign has not commissioned an article by the Givens, it would seem so beneficial to so many.
Hmmm. Interesting. I may very well send in that as a suggestion to the Ensign and mention how the few recent "doubt" articles may feel good to TBM's, but would do nothing for someone in the middle of a FC.
I might do that. I will report back if I send it in. I might just give the details so if others also want to suggest this, we could do a small flood to get some attention.
That is a thought. It is my understanding that Deseret Book asked for a book like Crucible of Doubt. I realize the Ensign is a little higher order than DB (every word in the Ensign is scripture after all ;) ) but it would seem like if DB could do it, so can the Ensign. Maybe a little respectful requesting could make that happen.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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LookingHard
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Re: Doubting - Meridian Magazine

Post by LookingHard » 03 Mar 2015, 13:06

DarkJedi wrote:
LookingHard wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:Thanks for sharing, Mom. I do wonder why the Ensign has not commissioned an article by the Givens, it would seem so beneficial to so many.
Hmmm. Interesting. I may very well send in that as a suggestion to the Ensign and mention how the few recent "doubt" articles may feel good to TBM's, but would do nothing for someone in the middle of a FC.
I might do that. I will report back if I send it in. I might just give the details so if others also want to suggest this, we could do a small flood to get some attention.
That is a thought. It is my understanding that Deseret Book asked for a book like Crucible of Doubt. I realize the Ensign is a little higher order than DB (every word in the Ensign is scripture after all ;) ) but it would seem like if DB could do it, so can the Ensign. Maybe a little respectful requesting could make that happen.
I just received the Crucible of Doubt, but have not yet had time to read it. I had to laugh when I heard (from my memory here, so take it with a grain of Na Cl) that the Crucible of Doubt apparently makes a statement to the effect that a historical prophet made a mistake, the DB editors came back and said, "You can't say that, you have to change it." The Givens replied that he has to for his book to make sense.

Back to that belief that you can NEVER state that a prophet has done wrong (see polygamy essays). I can only think of President Uchtdorf as saying mistakes were made.

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SMiLe
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Re: Doubting - Meridian Magazine

Post by SMiLe » 05 Mar 2015, 09:52

Because we are dynamic beings and truth is received line by line, precept by precept, because revelation is continuing and not always infallible, we must be willing to accommodate new understanding. Otherwise, as Joseph feared, we will “fall apart like shattered glass” rather than make the subtle adjustments to our paradigms induced by new understandings.
I understand the point that Bro Givens is trying to make with this statement, but the comment that "revelation is not always infallible" is something that I have difficulty with. In my mind, revelation has to be infallible in order to be revelation. Our understanding of revelation is fallible, but the revelation itself can't be otherwise I don't believe that it can have come from God.

This is part of what kicked off my FC to begin with. When you find out the things that Brigham Young was teaching in his day (Adam-God doctrine, blood atonement, etc) and then get told "oh, we don't teach those things any more" or "that was just his opinion", that flies in the face of my understanding. He was either teaching revelation or he was teaching false doctrine. The saints in those days sure didn't see those things as Brigham Young's opinion, this was the prophet teaching from the pulpit after all. I believe they must have thought that what they were being taught was revelation.

And that leads me to question, what things are being taught now as "revelation" that future generations will simply have to accept as "that must have just been his opinion"? And questions like that are what began to undermine my confidence in the authority of the church and its leaders.

Sorry for the rant, it just touched on what I see now as something that is still a sore point for me...

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LookingHard
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Re: Doubting - Meridian Magazine

Post by LookingHard » 05 Mar 2015, 09:58

Smile - I am there with you. This is my biggest issue also. We heard in last conference, "we will not, we cannot mislead you" and I had to yell at my TV, "That can't be true! Even Pres Ucthdorf said so!" Glad my TBM wife wasn't at home then.

I can get my head around that leaders are fallible and sometimes say/teach/preach incorrect things, but I am just get upset when I hear how the leader say there is direct line from God to the prophet then to you. I just don't see it that way anymore. I see me trying to do what God says and listening to the leaders at my SIDE. I need to get the spirit to tell me which things that they say are true and that I need to do. At the same time, I am not a leader hater. I look at many of them and see a tremendous sacrifice that they make in administering the church. But I do see them over-emphasizing their role.

Bill Real had this topic on his podcast of mormondiscussion.org, but that was one that I must admit didn't really help resolve the issue for me.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Doubting - Meridian Magazine

Post by DarkJedi » 05 Mar 2015, 10:58

SMiLe wrote:I understand the point that Bro Givens is trying to make with this statement, but the comment that "revelation is not always infallible" is something that I have difficulty with. In my mind, revelation has to be infallible in order to be revelation. Our understanding of revelation is fallible, but the revelation itself can't be otherwise I don't believe that it can have come from God.
I think we may be discussing two different aspects of revelation vs. speaking as men. There is no doubt in my mind that most of the time the GAs are speaking as men. I don't see Adam-God as being anything other than Brigham Young's false idea. But even when they are speaking about revelation it's very possible that the interpretaion of that revelation is at fault, not the revelation itself - back to that "seeing through glass darkly" thing. I don't profess to have had a lot of revelation, but what I have had that I think is revelation isn't words - it's impressions and feelings. Even if we read through what we know about OD2 and the revelation on the priesthood, it is apparent that what the Q15 who were present had was a collective feeling or impression. There was apparently no voice from heaven or visit by the Lord. I think it can be very difficult to put those impressions or feelings into words, partly because they're not words to begin with and partly because words are inadequate. In the stuff recently made available from the church (mostly via the Joseph Smith Papers project) it is clear Joseph struggled with this as we look at the many revisions to the revelations in the D&C. Don't get me wrong here, I think much of that was made up by Joseph, but if it was revelation I can understand why it is so hard to put into words or even misinterpret what the revelation actually was.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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Tim
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Re: Doubting - Meridian Magazine

Post by Tim » 07 Mar 2015, 08:50

I don't find them helpful. Especially the Ensign one. In fact they are a little condescending. It boils down to "I know you are struggling with your doubts, so what you should do is... to not have doubts." And: "Don't reason, just believe." It's the "doubt your doubts" argument restated in a lot more words.

They are right though. To continue to have faith this is exactly what is required. But it doesn't help me much since I'm a pretty strong believer in the power of reason to lead me to truth. Faith in whatever you are currently believing (Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.) while doubting your doubts in these things that you have been taught has a much worse track record for arriving at truth. Especially when you look back at historical belief systems.

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