The Millenium

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
Roy
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Re: The Millenium

Post by Roy » 15 Dec 2014, 11:25

The end of days is always important to new religious groups.

The original Christian apostles seemed to teach that the second coming was within their lifetime.

JS and the early church also taught this quite strongly (complete with descriptions of the destruction faced by specific cities). There have been patriarchal blessings saying "you will live to see the second coming" as long as there have been patriarchal blessings. There were even some priesthood meetings in Utah where the speaker/apostle would say that "there are some here present that will live to see the second coming."

The church appears to have distanced itself from this concept. This is in part because as we become more mainstream in society we become less eager to see the rest of society go to ____ in a handbasket. Another reason is that it gets somewhat embarrassing to keep saying that THIS is the generation that will live to see the millennium... :? :oops: :problem: oh...wait... THIS is the generation. ;)

The biggest step in this direction IMO is Elder packer making the statement that the youth of today should prepair to live their lives as though the second coming wouldn't cut short their plans.

Normal religious movement evolution IMO.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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SilentDawning
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Re: The Millenium

Post by SilentDawning » 15 Dec 2014, 16:03

This for me, emphasizes the fact that one has to elevate their own conscience above the "conscience" and culture of the church. What do YOU really think about [insert widely held belief here]. We have seen that even prophets and apostles, and of course, local leaders can, and do lead the church astray as they pursue their callings with good intentions.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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Cadence
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Re: The Millenium

Post by Cadence » 16 Dec 2014, 17:44

The millennium is just an excuse to not fix problems yourself because Jesus is coming and he will take care of it all.


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Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. Thomas A. Edison

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” Neil deGrasse Tyson

Curt Sunshine
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Re: The Millenium

Post by Curt Sunshine » 16 Dec 2014, 18:15

For some, that absolutely is true, Cadence - and it's a sad result.

For others, it absolutely is not true.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Heber13
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Re: The Millenium

Post by Heber13 » 17 Dec 2014, 13:13

Cadence wrote:The millennium is just an excuse to not fix problems yourself because Jesus is coming and he will take care of it all.
Probably a coping mechanism for some people to park things out of their control or understanding...similar to when people say, "God will make it all right in the afterlife". That works for things out of our control so we can get on with things...it's a cop out when it is used for things that should be in our sphere of control.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Cadence
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Re: The Millenium

Post by Cadence » 22 Dec 2014, 07:53

Heber13 wrote:
Cadence wrote:The millennium is just an excuse to not fix problems yourself because Jesus is coming and he will take care of it all.
Probably a coping mechanism for some people to park things out of their control or understanding...similar to when people say, "God will make it all right in the afterlife". That works for things out of our control so we can get on with things...it's a cop out when it is used for things that should be in our sphere of control.
I guess to many people have things outside of their sphere of control and need to somehow know that things will be alright. So the idea of the millennium where everything is at piece is comforting.

I think my issue is not the millennium itself but the work up to it. Blood death and destruction. Miserable suffering for not doing exactly the right thing. It is those who look forward to this time with a sense of glee that just punishment is going to be handed out, that wear on me. The doomsdayers with the apocalyptic outlook, hording food and guns? I hope the first bomb lands on my house.

I would prefer we skip the blood and we go straight to the living in peace part.
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. Thomas A. Edison

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” Neil deGrasse Tyson

nibbler
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Re: The Millenium

Post by nibbler » 22 Dec 2014, 08:59

I agree Cadence. It's a shame that the signs of the second coming that people focus on are the ones related to death and destruction. In some extreme cases it does feel like an extension of a desire for retribution.

Our lesson in PH last Sunday was on the second coming and by extension the millennium. My only comment was that we don't have to wait for the second coming to happen to start to live our lives as we would want to live them during the millennium, we can start doing that now. I also said that perhaps the savior isn't waiting until the world is in such a wicked state that his hand is forced, essentially showing up to put things back in order. Perhaps he delays his coming until the world is prepared for his coming, meaning he'll show up when the world is a good enough place for him to want to come. Similar to our concept of the spirit only dwelling in righteous places.

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Ilovechrist77
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Re: The Millenium

Post by Ilovechrist77 » 22 Dec 2014, 17:51

Roy, I always thought that the "this generation statement" was referring to the last days, not during Joseph Smith's or the early apostles' lifetimes. At least, that what I was taught.

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journeygirl
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Re: The Millenium

Post by journeygirl » 27 Dec 2014, 18:33

nibbler wrote:
I think most of what we "know" about the millennium is just people doing their best to answer these sorts of questions. If you are a religious leader and enough people like your answer your ideas "stick."
I think the millennium teachings are going to turn out like the other misguided opinions of past leaders just like the blood atonement or racial discrimination with the priesthood stuff. Most of the Bible passages people think are about the millennium are very vague and the ones in the D&C are very suspect to me as well.

In so many ways the world is getting better, I would say it is better in more ways than it is worse. So I think technology and enlightenment will lead the human race towards peace, not more war and destruction. There are certain countries and groups in the world who have the potential to destroy us all, but I think we will see those threats diminish over time. The global economy and information sharing are already bringing people together so I suspect that will dominate over those who want to destroy.

Wouldn't it be cool if Christ comes back to see we have solved many of our problems ourselves?

AmyJ
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Re: The Millenium

Post by AmyJ » 17 Jul 2018, 06:06

<Bump>

I found this talk about the upcoming days to be interesting because it is about the upcoming days, but more focused on the here-and-now.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/05/sund ... e?lang=eng

One of my favorite parts is this:
"We rejoice in these days and pray that we will be able to courageously face our struggles and uncertainties. The difficulties of some are more severe than those of others, but no one is immune. Elder Neal A. Maxwell once said to me, “If everything is going perfectly for you right now, just wait.”

Although the Lord reassures us again and again that we “need not fear,” keeping a clear perspective and seeing beyond this world is not always easy when we are in the midst of trials."
When I read the quote by President Maxwell, I thought about my family. In the early days of my marriage, I took seriously the issues we had and thought "these are the worst times with the greatest struggle". And then we had our first child... and that became the hardest struggle... until we hit some unexpected developmental circumstances with her, re-located cross country, and formed a new life for us.... we thought we had a break... but then we discovered my mental health limits, my husband developed chronic health problems, and we had a baby... and now I am in a faith transition.

All of these circumstances have been for our greater good - whether God designed it that way, or we like Jacob wrestled the greater good from the circumstances the way he wrestled with the angel, I do not know.

While things have rarely gone "perfectly" for me, I can see many times in the past where things were going better then I perceived them to be when I was there at the time. I strive to incorporate that memory into my present circumstances - channel it into the hope that we will be able to make everything work out in the best way possible for all of us.

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