The Millenium

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SunbeltRed
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The Millenium

Post by SunbeltRed » 14 Dec 2014, 19:52

I didn't see a thread dedicated to this directly so thought I would throw this out there. I sat in on Gospel Principles today and the lesson was on the millennium. Probably not the best lesson for me, and I walked away shaking my head wondering why we teach this to investigators or new members. It seems completely irrelevant (or maybe that is just my lack of belief speaking). Anyway, I felt rather confused about the millennium and I ended up with way more questions than answers. Am interested to hear others thoughts about the millennium and here are some of my questions.

1) If Satan is bound, how can agency exist? Or is he bound because everyone is so righteous that he no longer has power?
2) From what I understand people will continue to grow old, have children, etc.. If that's the case how will the children born have any agency if everything is so purely righteous?
3) Will people just be farmers ? (swords beaten into ploughshare). If someone was having a vision of the millennium wouldn't they see that we had computers and stuff and don't really fight with swords any more?
4) Will technology still be progressing?
5) If you were of the Terestrial ilk but are resurrected during the millennium will you know you will not be getting to the CK? Or will it be like trying to do a good job to get that bonus for being an exceeds employee, only to find out you were just a meets the goals employees? Cause if you did know, I doubt you would care or be much motivated to do temple work.
6) Will it just be lots of temple work? Seriously? I was talking to wife about this and she was like, no offense, but that sounds boring (God bless that woman!)
7) If you are alive and one of the specials and can now see the past, present, and future how does the whatever intelligence you gain in this life carry to the next work? What does it matter what you have learned or thought about or contemplated during mortality?
8) An Elder got up and said that some GA who they met with yesterday said that the Millenum is not a time to prepare to meet CHrist, this is the only life we have and whatever we have done during mortality is it and that is what we will be judged on (this is one of my sore spots) so I asked him if that's the case, then what is the point of the millennium? (I'm not sure he like my question).

Anyway, I thought all this was kind of crazy before my FC, but through my new filter it just seems really really...weird (no offense to those of you who believe in the literal millennium).

Anyway, curious to hear what others think about it. And/or is there a way to frame this in a way that doesn't seem as wild as it sounded to me today?

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LookingHard
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Re: The Millenium

Post by LookingHard » 14 Dec 2014, 20:30

I don't have a substantive answer, but something funny that came from a TBM High Councilor. He said that in the millennium that the first 800 years will be to just straighten out the records of the church, then we can start in earnest getting all our kindred the ordinances they need. It made me chuckle

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DarkJedi
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Re: The Millenium

Post by DarkJedi » 15 Dec 2014, 06:34

These are good questions, and I know this is a bit of a cop out. I don't think we know what's really going to happen then, just like we don't know very much about the rest of the after life. Yesterday in priesthood the teacher was kind of making fun of other Christians' beliefs that we sit around singing and playing music for eternity, pointing out how boring that would be. The LDS idea that we will be Gods (yes, he taught this) is much more interesting because we will be creating planets and spirit children and actually working for eternity. I don't know, I see it as pretty much the same. The reason I don't work in a factory is because I don't think I could tolerate doing the same thing day in and day out for very long. So what's the difference in sitting on a cloud playing music and creating worlds? (Of course we all know there's more to it than that - Clarence had to earn his wings to become an angel first class. Perhaps there are corporal and sergeant angels, too. :lol: ) I'm not all that fond of the temple anyway - spending every day and night there for 1000 years isn't very appealing to me.

So, like I choose to worry about the here and now instead of my eventual reward (or lack thereof) because I do have some understanding of here and now and little understanding of the future, I choose to not spend much time thinking about the millennium.
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Minyan Man
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Re: The Millenium

Post by Minyan Man » 15 Dec 2014, 07:10

DarkJedi wrote:... I choose to worry about the here and now instead of my eventual reward (or lack thereof) because I do have some understanding of here and now and little understanding of the future, I choose to not spend much time thinking about the millennium.
Amen brother. My thoughts exactly.
Plus, I think there are going to be a lot of surprises for all of us in the next life.

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SunbeltRed
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Re: The Millenium

Post by SunbeltRed » 15 Dec 2014, 07:31

Yeah,

I don't think about it much either, which is why I found the lesson yesterday to be fairly useless (for me anyway). It all seems like speculation taken from a few versus in revelations and in reality we don't know anything. And when you actually start thinking about it, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

It seems like a hold over from the doctrine that the second coming is around the corner...the LDS church really seems to like to emphasize it more than I personally would prefer.

Eternity4me
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Re: The Millenium

Post by Eternity4me » 15 Dec 2014, 07:48

SunbeltRed wrote:
It seems like a hold over from the doctrine that the second coming is around the corner...the LDS church really seems to like to emphasize it more than I personally would prefer.
I agree that there is still a huge emphasis on the idea that the second coming is just around the corner. In fact I have a family member who is convinced The Lord will come before she dies, and she is in her late 70's. I can't tell you how many people speak of their patriarchal blessings assuring them it is imminent, that they will be part of the "winding up scenes" of the second coming. I am not sure of the purpose of it, we have been warned it is imminent for decades. Are they trying to give us a sense of "you better shape up now because time is running out"? I don't know about you, but I have enough stress in my life just getting through the day without fearing the second coming and cataclysmic destruction.

I don't understand the millennium either, and so I rarely think about it. I don't want to be on earth when the second coming occurs, and as I have traversed my personal FC, I am beginning to realize we are probably totally off base on how it will happen or what it will look like, or if it will happen. Yes, I just said that. I don't know what to believe on that anymore.

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nibbler
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Re: The Millenium

Post by nibbler » 15 Dec 2014, 08:05

There's really not very many scriptures on the millennium so it gets to be whatever we want it to be. An open invitation to speculative and wishful thinking.
SunbeltRed wrote:If Satan is bound, how can agency exist? Or is he bound because everyone is so righteous that he no longer has power?
I've heard that he is bound in that everyone is so righteous that he no longer has power. I've also read scriptures in Revelation that talk of keys, chains, bottomless pits, and seals. There are probably better ways to figuratively say that people have lost interest in what you're selling.

SunbeltRed wrote:From what I understand people will continue to grow old, have children, etc.. If that's the case how will the children born have any agency if everything is so purely righteous?
Here's the references I found, they are all in the D&C: 45:58, 63:51, and 101:29–31. I recognize that there are many families that would be considered to be more righteous than mine and there are some families that might be considered less righteous than mine. Do the children in all these families have differing levels of agency contingent on their respective environments? Of course the world tends to level that playing field. An interesting thought once the entire world becomes the equivalent to that uber-righteous family. I'll up the scale to balance the equation:

In the millennium the Earth will be righteous but people will be interacting with other people throughout the entire universe. Some planets will be more righteous than Earth, some planets less. The challenge then will be to "be in the universe, not of the universe."

Selah. So let it be written...

But on a more serious note, perhaps that's where the idea of the devil being loosed for a season after the millennium originated. To balance the preservation of agency. Sure, there are all kinds of problems with that one - like how will a people that have never been truly tempted fair when temptation finally rears its ugly head?
SunbeltRed wrote:Will people just be farmers ? (swords beaten into ploughshare). If someone was having a vision of the millennium wouldn't they see that we had computers and stuff and don't really fight with swords any more?
Gotta do something with the swords. Farmers that dream of the millennium probably wanted ploughshares for Christmas. I want a new mountain bike... but only made from aluminum or carbon fiber swords. Pro tip: keep a few swords around for when the devil is loosed for a spell at the end of the 1000 years.
SunbeltRed wrote:Will technology still be progressing?
Probably, but just with slightly larger screens and slightly thinner... still no USB connection though.
SunbeltRed wrote:If you were of the Terestrial ilk but are resurrected during the millennium will you know you will not be getting to the CK? Or will it be like trying to do a good job to get that bonus for being an exceeds employee, only to find out you were just a meets the goals employees? Cause if you did know, I doubt you would care or be much motivated to do temple work.
That is a pretty weak carrot to dangle. Maybe the guys that know they aren't in are the ones that will be making sure that everyone gets their agency during the millennium... because "Party Time!1!!1!" Right?
SunbeltRed wrote:Will it just be lots of temple work? Seriously? I was talking to wife about this and she was like, no offense, but that sounds boring (God bless that woman!)
I doubt it. If people need temple work I think it would be more meaningful for them to resurrect and go through a session for themselves. If that's the case I suddenly have a little free time. I can have this smug look on my face while everyone else is in line. ;)
SunbeltRed wrote:If you are alive and one of the specials and can now see the past, present, and future how does the whatever intelligence you gain in this life carry to the next work? What does it matter what you have learned or thought about or contemplated during mortality?
Maybe it still requires some effort, just like it does today. You can see the past, present, and future if you're willing to put in the effort but it's not a given. In that sense the millennium really wouldn't be all that different than now, except that we might have access to a more reliable information or something.
SunbeltRed wrote:An Elder got up and said that some GA who they met with yesterday said that the Millenum is not a time to prepare to meet CHrist, this is the only life we have and whatever we have done during mortality is it and that is what we will be judged on (this is one of my sore spots) so I asked him if that's the case, then what is the point of the millennium? (I'm not sure he like my question).
Well I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night and I say that the millennium is what you make of it.
DarkJedi wrote:Yesterday in priesthood the teacher was kind of making fun of other Christians' beliefs that we sit around singing and playing music for eternity, pointing out how boring that would be. The LDS idea that we will be Gods (yes, he taught this) is much more interesting because we will be creating planets and spirit children and actually working for eternity. I don't know, I see it as pretty much the same. The reason I don't work in a factory is because I don't think I could tolerate doing the same thing day in and day out for very long. So what's the difference in sitting on a cloud playing music and creating worlds?
One man's endless temple attendance for 1000 years is another man's guitar playing for 1000 years. Personally I think I'll be off on a thousand year hike in the woods... provided the woods aren't too crowded. I may need my own planet to make sure I've got enough space to explore. ;)

I think most of what we "know" about the millennium is just people doing their best to answer these sorts of questions. If you are a religious leader and enough people like your answer your ideas "stick."
You can't just have your characters announce how they feel... that makes me feel ANGRY!
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Orson
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Re: The Millenium

Post by Orson » 15 Dec 2014, 08:44

Excellent, excellent questions!

I'll give my quick impressions:
SunbeltRed wrote: 1) If Satan is bound, how can agency exist? Or is he bound because everyone is so righteous that he no longer has power?
"Bound" figuratively, yes the collective will of society will be to love.
SunbeltRed wrote:2) From what I understand people will continue to grow old, have children, etc.. If that's the case how will the children born have any agency if everything is so purely righteous?
True, righteousness cannot exist in a vacuum; thus children will experience their struggles, but as they grow to adulthood they will embrace the love and understand the interdependence of agency/trial/righteousness.
SunbeltRed wrote:3) Will people just be farmers ? (swords beaten into ploughshare). If someone was having a vision of the millennium wouldn't they see that we had computers and stuff and don't really fight with swords any more?
Yes absolutely but all visions/revelations are given within the context that the receiver can relate to - the human filter is always present. In the context of back then farming is what they could relate to.
SunbeltRed wrote:4) Will technology still be progressing?
Absolutely.

SunbeltRed wrote:5) If you were of the Terestrial ilk but are resurrected during the millennium will you know you will not be getting to the CK? Or will it be like trying to do a good job to get that bonus for being an exceeds employee, only to find out you were just a meets the goals employees? Cause if you did know, I doubt you would care or be much motivated to do temple work.
I think in the Millennium people will finally be past the rewards mentality. The joy and love we receive comes from what we give. If people realize they are "short" they will up their rate of giving. Love will inspire.
SunbeltRed wrote:6) Will it just be lots of temple work? Seriously? I was talking to wife about this and she was like, no offense, but that sounds boring (God bless that woman!)
Not just, and temple "work" perfected will blow your mind.
SunbeltRed wrote:7) If you are alive and one of the specials and can now see the past, present, and future how does the whatever intelligence you gain in this life carry to the next work? What does it matter what you have learned or thought about or contemplated during mortality?
If someone from the "dark ages" was transported to the information age, would they be any further ahead if they had read every book they could get their hands on from that time? Would they be any further ahead if they had learned to read?

SunbeltRed wrote:8) An Elder got up and said that some GA who they met with yesterday said that the Millenum is not a time to prepare to meet CHrist, this is the only life we have and whatever we have done during mortality is it and that is what we will be judged on (this is one of my sore spots) so I asked him if that's the case, then what is the point of the millennium? (I'm not sure he like my question).
"Judged" is a loaded and OT based word in my opinion. Let's remember that Christ fulfilled the old law so what is the new paradigm? "As I have loved you love one another." The love that we give comes back to us, even more so if we don't want it to. Those who try to take find they are taken from --- think of interacting with a mirror that magnifies your actions.
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Re: The Millenium

Post by Curt Sunshine » 15 Dec 2014, 10:13

Honestly, I don't think or worry about it, since I take it figuratively, just like so many other things.

I think it's a beautiful concept - but, just like most concepts, it can be good or bad, depending on how it is applied in real life.
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Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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SilentDawning
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Re: The Millenium

Post by SilentDawning » 15 Dec 2014, 10:18

1) If Satan is bound, how can agency exist? Or is he bound because everyone is so righteous that he no longer has power?
I think mankind has innate power to be evil at any time. Satan is merely a catalyst...so even the righteous will have to exercise self-discipline in the millenium.
2) From what I understand people will continue to grow old, have children, etc.. If that's the case how will the children born have any agency if everything is so purely righteous?
See my answer to #1.
3) Will people just be farmers ? (swords beaten into ploughshare). If someone was having a vision of the millennium wouldn't they see that we had computers and stuff and don't really fight with swords any more?
No clue. Sorry.
4) Will technology still be progressing?
If we believe in eternal progression, then yes. In fact, I often wonder if god is working from technology,and that is partly the source of his power!
5) If you were of the Terestrial ilk but are resurrected during the millennium will you know you will not be getting to the CK? Or will it be like trying to do a good job to get that bonus for being an exceeds employee, only to find out you were just a meets the goals employees? Cause if you did know, I doubt you would care or be much motivated to do temple work.
I have no clue.
6) Will it just be lots of temple work? Seriously? I was talking to wife about this and she was like, no offense, but that sounds boring (God bless that woman!)
If its just temple work, then I don't have a lot to look forward to!!!
7) If you are alive and one of the specials and can now see the past, present, and future how does the whatever intelligence you gain in this life carry to the next work? What does it matter what you have learned or thought about or contemplated during mortality?
I have never heard of a veil after the second coming for the righteous. In fact, the scriptures seem to point to an outpouring of knowledge, so I think we'll retain our memories. I think it will still matter what we thought in mortality for judgment purposes. To treat the people who were here at the time fo the 2nd Coming as if they lived without accountability would not be fair. That would not be just, and the scriptures say we will acknowledge that all judgments are fair.
8) An Elder got up and said that some GA who they met with yesterday said that the Millenum is not a time to prepare to meet CHrist, this is the only life we have and whatever we have done during mortality is it and that is what we will be judged on
The scriptures seem to justify this line of thinking, but we also have eternal progression, and a passage in D&C that says punishment is eternal only because it came from God, not because it is forever. There seems to be a loophole that if you suffer long enough, you may then be able to progress and perhaps, eventually, be saved in the Kingdom of God. Of course, the BoM also contradicts this idea, with its "few stripes" passage, but there is enough contradictory evidence, and I believe enough in God's mercy that I think there will be some who repent and get a higher status in the Millenium. But that's just my opinion. I know nothing.
(this is one of my sore spots) so I asked him if that's the case, then what is the point of the millennium? (I'm not sure he like my question).
Good point. Perhaps its a scapegoat for all the confusion the plural marriage doctrine creates, the complex exceptions to the commandment-keeping and reward relationships, and a period of training for future leaders in God's Kingdom.
Anyway, curious to hear what others think about it. And/or is there a way to frame this in a way that doesn't seem as wild as it sounded to me today?
I think not. It's all speculation in my view -- just as the widespread belief Christ was coming in the time of the early saints was speculation. In spite of all of our apostolic leaders, I think there is still a lot of lore that everyone just lets percolate in the membership, since no one really knows for sure.

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