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What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 08:45
by DarkJedi
This is sort of a poll to help me understand what others believe so I can better understand how to interact. It would probably be better on a more orthodox site, but they might not tolerate the question. You may choose from an option below or give your own interpretation.

1. The First Vision was a real, actual physical and literal event where Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ were present in the sacred grove and it happened as Joseph described.
2. The First Vision was a spiritual or visionary event (although nonetheless real) where Joseph saw Heavenly Father and Jesus with is spiritual eyes but they were not physically present and it happened as Joseph described.
3. Joseph experienced some sort of hallucination and while he believed the events actually occurred, Heavenly Father, Jesus, or angels did not actually appear to him physically or spiritually.
4. None of it happened and Joseph (with his family as co-conspirators) made it up.

We can delve into subsequent visions and revelations another time, for now please stick to just the First Vision.

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 08:46
by DarkJedi
I will reply first. I believe option 2 - but I can comprehend that such a scenario can also be quite "real."

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 09:08
by SilentDawning
Somewhere between 2 and 4. I don't think it was a literal vision, that's for sure.

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 09:16
by nibbler
To tell the truth, as stupid as it sounds I feel like I get more insights by believing all available options to be true. That way I can receive insights from multiple angles if you will. I really don't like settling on any one choice but if I had to... maybe a 2.5.

I find your choice of wording for #4 odd. The parenthetical note seems to create a perhaps unintended bias. That's to say that if you opt with JS making everything up you're also signing up with a more elaborate, and therefore more unlikely conspiracy that involves more and more people. Why would his family have to be co-conspirators if he made up the FV? His family could have truly believed a fabricated account.

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 09:26
by SunbeltRed
Probably a 2.5 - 3.5 (somewhere in there), so I guess average it at 3 :smile:

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 09:43
by DarkJedi
nibbler wrote:To tell the truth, as stupid as it sounds I feel like I get more insights by believing all available options to be true. That way I can receive insights from multiple angles if you will. I really don't like settling on any one choice but if I had to... maybe a 2.5.

I find your choice of wording for #4 odd. The parenthetical note seems to create a perhaps unintended bias. That's to say that if you opt with JS making everything up you're also signing up with a more elaborate, and therefore more unlikely conspiracy that involves more and more people. Why would his family have to be co-conspirators if he made up the FV? His family could have truly believed a fabricated account.
If it was made up it would have been pretty difficult for a boy to have perpetuated it without the assistance of his family. There is also some evidence, sometimes cited by antis, that originally it was purported that Alvin had the vision - but Alvin suffered an untimely early death. I don't disagree with you, Nibbler, his family could have very well believed him and if it did actually happen, literally or figuratively, that certainly must have been the case.

As for bias, as stated before I believe it did happen and that, so I don't know that his family were co-conspirators in any way. I have often wondered about the other members of the family we don't hear so much about, like Sophronia and Ephraim. Other than the parents, Hyrum, and perhaps Samuel we're not taught what (or if) they believed. But I suppose that's another topic.

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 11:54
by LookingHard
If I have to select a integer response, then #2 is the closest.

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 12:04
by journeygirl
I guess I think it is somewhere between 2 and 3. His life was pretty hard so I do think he probably really believed something happened to him. Whether it really was god or not, I have no way of knowing.

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 13:02
by mom3
I am going with number 5.

I know, I know, there is no number 5, but my take is that his 1832 recording is the most accurate of the experience. In it he says it was a vision - not visitation - he only spoke with Jesus and it was only about his standing before God and his sins, which were forgiven him.

Everything else jumbles after that.

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Posted: 10 Dec 2014, 13:10
by nibbler
LookingHard wrote:If I have to select a integer response, then #2 is the closest.
If you're only entertaining integers I guess you'd probably be even less likely to go with √-4 ;)