What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

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DarkJedi
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Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by DarkJedi » 04 Jan 2015, 05:59

wayfarer wrote:
cwald wrote:Sure. I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt as well. I'm just a little bit jaded right now.

-sigh- The best i can do, with the benefit of doubt, is 2.8
Hmmm. I take it you won't be attending a full-year course on the teachings of the 14 fundamentals and the guy who spoke them? :lol:
:lol: Funny - our HPGL emailed us the lesson schedule for the year a few days ago and I am already planning which Sundays to skip. ;) This would be a good year to be in Primary or YM.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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dash1730
Posts: 295
Joined: 17 Oct 2009, 14:21

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by dash1730 » 04 Jan 2015, 07:09

our HPGL emailed us the lesson schedule for the year a few days ago and I am already planning which Sundays to skip.
I too, scanned the years offering, and wasn't much impressed, except for Lesson #3, on Free Agency. I was reasonably impressed with the discussion. But what caught my eye was one reference to Obedience. I immediately emailed my HPGL and asked to teach that lesson. Those two principles taken together encompass some powerful concepts, for example

First of all Obedience and Free Agency are foundational concepts going back to the ore-existence:
Lucifer's plan for forcing obedience was overtly rejected, even with it meaning 1/3 the host of heaven were lost forever
Christ's alternative overtly gave us our free agency,to experiment and choose for ourselves. It also provided a way that Christ would pay
for our sins, providing we mend our ways, i.e. repent.
We have no need to be a puppet on a string, following every perceived command by our file leaders and/or God
Free agency means far more than political and economic freedom
We must make decisions every day that contribute to developing a Christ like character: Think compassion, altruism, generosity, loving
God and your fellow man, anger management, driving friendly, emotionally support your family, regardless of whether you approve,
etc. etc. etc
On the surface obedience and free agency are counter to one another, a paradox
Our task is to learn to want to choose good
But since every blessing is predicated upon the principle upon which it is predicated, that shouldn't be terribly impossible.
Science and engineering have shown us how such obedience can give us such marvels as jet airplanes, the internet, medical science.
Likewise, I believe obedience to fundamental gospel principles brings us more joy, peace and comfort. I most cases we don't have to
wait for the hereafter to realize some benefits. After all, man is that he might have joy.
I may not walk the straight and narrow, but I try to cross it as often as I can.
---J Golden Kimball

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cwald
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Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by cwald » 04 Jan 2015, 11:40

wayfarer wrote:
cwald wrote:Sure. I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt as well. I'm just a little bit jaded right now.

-sigh- The best i can do, with the benefit of doubt, is 2.8
Hmmm. I take it you won't be attending a full-year course on the teachings of the 14 fundamentals and the guy who spoke them? :lol:
Image
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

Curt Sunshine
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Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 04 Jan 2015, 14:10

I would love to hear that lesson, dash1730.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

dash1730
Posts: 295
Joined: 17 Oct 2009, 14:21

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by dash1730 » 04 Jan 2015, 19:05

Ray DeGraw » I would love to hear that lesson, dash1730.
I'll be happy to share it when I get it put together. My biggest advantage is the lesson manual that focuses strongly on free agency and mentions obedience only in passing. My biggest challenge is to present it in a way that doesn't offend.
I may not walk the straight and narrow, but I try to cross it as often as I can.
---J Golden Kimball

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DarkJedi
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Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by DarkJedi » 04 Jan 2015, 21:07

dash1730 wrote:
our HPGL emailed us the lesson schedule for the year a few days ago and I am already planning which Sundays to skip.
I too, scanned the years offering, and wasn't much impressed, except for Lesson #3, on Free Agency. I was reasonably impressed with the discussion. But what caught my eye was one reference to Obedience. I immediately emailed my HPGL and asked to teach that lesson. Those two principles taken together encompass some powerful concepts, for example

First of all Obedience and Free Agency are foundational concepts going back to the ore-existence:
Lucifer's plan for forcing obedience was overtly rejected, even with it meaning 1/3 the host of heaven were lost forever
Christ's alternative overtly gave us our free agency,to experiment and choose for ourselves. It also provided a way that Christ would pay
for our sins, providing we mend our ways, i.e. repent.
We have no need to be a puppet on a string, following every perceived command by our file leaders and/or God
Free agency means far more than political and economic freedom
We must make decisions every day that contribute to developing a Christ like character: Think compassion, altruism, generosity, loving
God and your fellow man, anger management, driving friendly, emotionally support your family, regardless of whether you approve,
etc. etc. etc
On the surface obedience and free agency are counter to one another, a paradox
Our task is to learn to want to choose good
But since every blessing is predicated upon the principle upon which it is predicated, that shouldn't be terribly impossible.
Science and engineering have shown us how such obedience can give us such marvels as jet airplanes, the internet, medical science.
Likewise, I believe obedience to fundamental gospel principles brings us more joy, peace and comfort. I most cases we don't have to
wait for the hereafter to realize some benefits. After all, man is that he might have joy.
You do make a good point that teaching the lesson my way is an alternative to skipping. Just off hand and without looking at the manual, I'd probably volunteer to do 11 (Follow the Living Prophet) and 18 (Beware of Pride) rather than skip them. If 11 includes the 14 fundamentals I could easily leave them out, and I like Pres. Uchtdorf's follow up to the Pride talk much better than Benson's version - Pres. Uchtdorf is right when he says people were afraid to even speak the word pride after that talk (paraphrased).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Eternity4me
Posts: 76
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 10:21

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by Eternity4me » 05 Jan 2015, 00:29

DarkJedi.
If 11 includes the 14 fundamentals I could easily leave them out,
Indeed, it not only includes the 14 F's, that is nearly the entire lesson. I am already dreading it. I need to learn to keep my mouth shut, but then I just feel irritated and uncomfortable. My mother is in my ward. If I skip class she always "worries" about me. I get the "I'm so glad you came" comment when I show up late. You would have no idea I am all grown up with kids and grand kids of my own. What is it about mothers and guilt?? :crazy:

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Levi714
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Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by Levi714 » 04 Feb 2015, 21:23

He was caught up in the Spirit but was not unconscious.
"At this sacred moment, the natural world around him was excluded from his view, so that he could be open to the presentation of heavenly and spiritual things." Orson Hyde(1842)
"My mind was taken away from the objects with which I was surrounded," Wentworth Letter

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DarkJedi
Posts: 7230
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by DarkJedi » 06 Feb 2015, 14:07

I had forgotten about the Wentworth Letter as a description of the First Vision. The letter was reprinted in The Ensign of July 2002. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/07/the- ... r?lang=eng The wording is very similar to the "canonized" version in the PoGP, but I find the following excerpt interesting (emphasis added).
Believing the word of God, I had confidence in the declaration of James—“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him” [James 1:5]. I retired to a secret place in a grove and began to call upon the Lord. While fervently engaged in supplication, my mind was taken away from the objects with which I was surrounded, and I was enwrapped in a heavenly vision and saw two glorious personages, who exactly resembled each other in features and likeness, surrounded with a brilliant light which eclipsed the sun at noonday.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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mom3
Posts: 4077
Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by mom3 » 06 Feb 2015, 15:58

my mind was taken away from the objects with which I was surrounded, and I was enwrapped in a heavenly vision and saw two glorious personages, who exactly resembled each other in features and likeness, surrounded with a brilliant light which eclipsed the sun at noonday.
Oh how I love this. :clap: I can believe and honor a persons vision. Visions are fantastic for inspiring, empowering, enlightening, and directing - and in this case freeing.

Dark Jedi - You made my day. This needs to be in the quotes section.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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