What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

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DarkJedi
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What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by DarkJedi » 10 Dec 2014, 08:45

This is sort of a poll to help me understand what others believe so I can better understand how to interact. It would probably be better on a more orthodox site, but they might not tolerate the question. You may choose from an option below or give your own interpretation.

1. The First Vision was a real, actual physical and literal event where Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ were present in the sacred grove and it happened as Joseph described.
2. The First Vision was a spiritual or visionary event (although nonetheless real) where Joseph saw Heavenly Father and Jesus with is spiritual eyes but they were not physically present and it happened as Joseph described.
3. Joseph experienced some sort of hallucination and while he believed the events actually occurred, Heavenly Father, Jesus, or angels did not actually appear to him physically or spiritually.
4. None of it happened and Joseph (with his family as co-conspirators) made it up.

We can delve into subsequent visions and revelations another time, for now please stick to just the First Vision.
Last edited by DarkJedi on 10 Dec 2014, 09:32, edited 1 time in total.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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DarkJedi
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Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by DarkJedi » 10 Dec 2014, 08:46

I will reply first. I believe option 2 - but I can comprehend that such a scenario can also be quite "real."
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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SilentDawning
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Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by SilentDawning » 10 Dec 2014, 09:08

Somewhere between 2 and 4. I don't think it was a literal vision, that's for sure.
Last edited by SilentDawning on 19 Dec 2014, 08:30, edited 1 time in total.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

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nibbler
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Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by nibbler » 10 Dec 2014, 09:16

To tell the truth, as stupid as it sounds I feel like I get more insights by believing all available options to be true. That way I can receive insights from multiple angles if you will. I really don't like settling on any one choice but if I had to... maybe a 2.5.

I find your choice of wording for #4 odd. The parenthetical note seems to create a perhaps unintended bias. That's to say that if you opt with JS making everything up you're also signing up with a more elaborate, and therefore more unlikely conspiracy that involves more and more people. Why would his family have to be co-conspirators if he made up the FV? His family could have truly believed a fabricated account.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
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SunbeltRed
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Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by SunbeltRed » 10 Dec 2014, 09:26

Probably a 2.5 - 3.5 (somewhere in there), so I guess average it at 3 :smile:

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DarkJedi
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Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by DarkJedi » 10 Dec 2014, 09:43

nibbler wrote:To tell the truth, as stupid as it sounds I feel like I get more insights by believing all available options to be true. That way I can receive insights from multiple angles if you will. I really don't like settling on any one choice but if I had to... maybe a 2.5.

I find your choice of wording for #4 odd. The parenthetical note seems to create a perhaps unintended bias. That's to say that if you opt with JS making everything up you're also signing up with a more elaborate, and therefore more unlikely conspiracy that involves more and more people. Why would his family have to be co-conspirators if he made up the FV? His family could have truly believed a fabricated account.
If it was made up it would have been pretty difficult for a boy to have perpetuated it without the assistance of his family. There is also some evidence, sometimes cited by antis, that originally it was purported that Alvin had the vision - but Alvin suffered an untimely early death. I don't disagree with you, Nibbler, his family could have very well believed him and if it did actually happen, literally or figuratively, that certainly must have been the case.

As for bias, as stated before I believe it did happen and that, so I don't know that his family were co-conspirators in any way. I have often wondered about the other members of the family we don't hear so much about, like Sophronia and Ephraim. Other than the parents, Hyrum, and perhaps Samuel we're not taught what (or if) they believed. But I suppose that's another topic.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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LookingHard
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Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by LookingHard » 10 Dec 2014, 11:54

If I have to select a integer response, then #2 is the closest.

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journeygirl
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Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by journeygirl » 10 Dec 2014, 12:04

I guess I think it is somewhere between 2 and 3. His life was pretty hard so I do think he probably really believed something happened to him. Whether it really was god or not, I have no way of knowing.

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mom3
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Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by mom3 » 10 Dec 2014, 13:02

I am going with number 5.

I know, I know, there is no number 5, but my take is that his 1832 recording is the most accurate of the experience. In it he says it was a vision - not visitation - he only spoke with Jesus and it was only about his standing before God and his sins, which were forgiven him.

Everything else jumbles after that.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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nibbler
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Re: What are your beliefs about the First Vision?

Post by nibbler » 10 Dec 2014, 13:10

LookingHard wrote:If I have to select a integer response, then #2 is the closest.
If you're only entertaining integers I guess you'd probably be even less likely to go with √-4 ;)
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.
— Henry David Thoreau

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