Forced Polygamy in the modern LDS Church

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foodoctor33
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Re: Forced Polygamy in the modern LDS Church

Post by foodoctor33 » 22 Jul 2014, 16:13

I'm with ya

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Forced Polygamy in the modern LDS Church

Post by Curt Sunshine » 22 Jul 2014, 16:31

Remember, even back when polygamy was presented by the leadership as absolutely necessary only a small minority of the membership was polygamous - since the large majority of the membership didn't want it in this life or after. There was some weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth (and splintering) when the Manifesto was announced, but there were even more members who nodded and said, "Good."

Eternal polygamy for everyone is not a current teaching of the LDS Church. Now, we simply say, in essence, as you've pointed out:
It will all work out in the end for the best.


I'm okay with that view, since, for example, it allows people who have loved more than one spouse deeply and would view trying to choose only one in the next life as their own version of Hell to hold onto hope that, somehow, it will work out in the end in a way that they will understand and accept - while also allowing me to believe that my wife will be my only eternal companion. I prefer expansive over restrictive, generally speaking, even with a topic like this.

Also, just to say it directly, when we insist that our view is the one and only true view when it comes to this topic, how in the world can we complain when more orthodox members insist that their view on some other topic is the one and only true view? I think we simply must try to see if there is a way to be as inclusive as possible on every topic if we aren't going to be hypocrites when it comes to our own "hot button issues". That doesn't mean we have to accept anything and everything; it simply means we have to try really hard to understand everything well enough to see if there is an option that is more inclusive than we would tend to use as our natural default.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Sheldon
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Re: Forced Polygamy in the modern LDS Church

Post by Sheldon » 25 Jul 2014, 15:50

foodoctor33 wrote: Our SP informed me that I checked the box for a sealing CLEARANCE not a sealing CANCELLATION. He reminded me that if my ex wife repents, the Lord will remember her sins no more and our sealing will still be valid. He again asked my current wife if she was ok with that. She readily said she wasn't and I deafeningly agreed with her. He said he thought so and put in the request for a CANCELLATION for me and a cancellation for my wife (who was also previously sealed to her ex in the temple).

We both received our letters from SLC the same day. My wife obviously received her CANCELLATION and I only received a CLEARANCE. Rather than ruin our scheduled plans to be sealed later that month...we went ahead and were sealed. So now, on the records of the Church, I am a spiritual polygamist. Against my free will and choice. I am angry and disgusted by two things. One: that I am involved in any way shape of form with polygamy....two: My free agency to determine if I would like to be in a spiritual polygamist situation was not honored by the Brethren.
Your SP was wrong when they let you make the “Cancelation” box on the form. Only Women can mark the cancelation box, and men must mark the “clearance” box. It is clear in the instructions, as I have filled them out many times. You have NO CHOICE in the matter.

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SilentDawning
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Re: Forced Polygamy in the modern LDS Church

Post by SilentDawning » 26 Jul 2014, 08:02

The problem I run into is that the whole idea of multiple marriages after death leads to a lot of complicated situations that local leaders can't answer. People then resort to "God will have to sort all that out in the next life". For me, it dilutes the whole idea of sealing power on earth and the order associated with the gospel and the world when we have to rely on the old "God will work it out in the end" scenario.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Forced Polygamy in the modern LDS Church

Post by Curt Sunshine » 26 Jul 2014, 14:16

What better alternative is there, SD?

That is a serious question. What other answer is there for people in many radically different situations?
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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nibbler
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Re: Forced Polygamy in the modern LDS Church

Post by nibbler » 26 Jul 2014, 15:48

Ray DeGraw wrote:What better alternative is there, SD?

That is a serious question. What other answer is there for people in many radically different situations?
In the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

:?:
If one dream dies, dream another dream. If you get knocked down, get back up and go again.
― Joel Osteen

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Forced Polygamy in the modern LDS Church

Post by Curt Sunshine » 26 Jul 2014, 18:17

Yep, not satisfying at all for lots of people - and just as open to interpretation differences as most things. ;)

There is no universally good answer, so I am fine with, "Marry whomever you want and hope the next life will be what you want when you get there."
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SilentDawning
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Re: Forced Polygamy in the modern LDS Church

Post by SilentDawning » 27 Jul 2014, 06:22

Ray DeGraw wrote:What better alternative is there, SD?

That is a serious question. What other answer is there for people in many radically different situations?
A better alternative is to actually know. Given our claims to divine authority, one would think there would be clear answers to certain questions that, apparently (according to our theology) are so central to salvation -- as well as a clearer idea of what it'll be like in that better, eternal world for which we all hope.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Forced Polygamy in the modern LDS Church

Post by Curt Sunshine » 27 Jul 2014, 08:25

Fine - so what would be better to actually know? What answer would you like more that wouldn't crush many other people's hopes?

I do this all the time in classes, so please understand: It's one thing to say we want to know something, but it's another thing entirely having to face the possibility of one answer we don't like or that crushes other people's deepest hopes. So . . .

What do you want the answer to be?

If you can come up with an answer, have hope in that; if not, especially if you don't want one answer that will leave lots of other people in despair, have hope that whatever will be will be acceptable to you and make you happy.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SilentDawning
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Re: Forced Polygamy in the modern LDS Church

Post by SilentDawning » 27 Jul 2014, 12:17

Ray, this is where I'm coming from on this particular one.

I have felt, over the years, that the church "extracts" [a word my first mission president used] a lot from us. The idea that there is inspiration at the top, one true church, greater light and knowledge about what it takes in this life to be saved, as well as the obligations of having made covenants -- those ideas are used a lot to obligate us to do things, to persist in drudgery, and in decades previously even stay married when it's clearly not working.

As you know I have given up a lot (as have many others) including close relationships with my non-member family, a lot of money, and endured some difficult emotional times as a result of my interaction with the church.

To then find the church relies on the Deus Ex Machina ending to the saga bothers me. Sure we might not like the answers, but there are times when I wish they could deliver more in terms of knowledge about the outcomes we face in the eternities given their own truth claims. And particularly how leaders use those claims to get us to do things. It is so vague, even when compared to the vague description of heaven and hell we get in non-LDS churches.

So, when I hear leaders and members using the ole "God will work this out in the end" answer, it reinforces the part of me that questions if all this is man-made. I feel the church comes up short, and wants to "have its cake and eat it too" -- enjoy the obedience and respect it deserves from being "true" and having truth and authority, while still reserving the right to leave us hanging on so many issues.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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