As man is God once was

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questioning89
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As man is God once was

Post by questioning89 » 22 Jul 2009, 11:31

So I was reading Mormon Doctrine and was reading talks by other leaders about the nature of God. Im not going to lie, I am very uncomfortable with the idea that God had a God, and that God had a God etc. I am very uncomfortable with the idea that God "became" God. I mean in my opinion it goes against the scriptures, and really no longer makes him the Almighty God. What do you guys think?

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Heber13
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Re: As man is God once was

Post by Heber13 » 22 Jul 2009, 14:39

I honestly don't have too much of a problem with the concept because I really can't grasp all the meaning of things within my own universe, to really worry much about beyond that...so I don't feel it changes me and my relationship to God.

I do have a problem with Mormon Doctrine...not sure all of that source is really solid to take at face value, nor do I think the church has ever endorsed it as true doctrine (despite the presumptive title of the book).
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Brian Johnston
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Re: As man is God once was

Post by Brian Johnston » 22 Jul 2009, 14:43

questioning89 wrote:So I was reading Mormon Doctrine and was reading talks by other leaders about the nature of God.
Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie is one person's personal opinion about the teachings of the LDS Church -- the author's. Some of his views were overturned even in his own lifetime. He apologized for a major view he promoted on race and priesthood. Which just goes to show that even apostles learn things "line upon line."
questioning89 wrote: Im not going to lie, I am very uncomfortable with the idea that God had a God, and that God had a God etc. I am very uncomfortable with the idea that God "became" God. I mean in my opinion it goes against the scriptures, and really no longer makes him the Almighty God. What do you guys think?
OK. Well that has been an idea floating around in the Church for a very long time. It is the assumption some leaders have made, based on mystical experiences (revelations) from previous prophets in our Church. It isn't actually a plainly stated doctrine in our canonized scripture, but is an assumption made on ideas in those works.

How do you think you personally can work around that discomfort? Do you have some ideas? You have to decide and take responsibility for your beliefs -- to own them.

The range of options falls somewhere generally into these three categories:

1. Accept it as-is without understanding the why or how. Some people label this "faith" with the assumption they will be given an explanation or see the truth of it at some later point.

2. Reject it. Those past leaders might be wrong. It isn't the first time.

3. Reinterpret and find a new personal meaning. This option sort of says the above statement about God is true and not true at the same time. You decide it is a metaphor pointing to a transcendent idea, one that can't be so plainly explained by humans except through the symbolic language of religion.

I personally fall into category 3 on this specific topic. I am different on other topics. Some I accept, some I reject. That is how the buffet works.

I spent a lot of time studying subjects like Sacred Geometry and other esoteric "mystery school" teachings. I see something very different, deep and personally enlightening in the Mormon brand of Theosis doctrines. What I see buried in our teachings about Theosis is even more disturbing :D
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: As man is God once was

Post by hawkgrrrl » 22 Jul 2009, 14:45

Heber13 - LOL! I agree. I have less problem with the idea that God is as man once was as I do with the book Mormon Doctrine.

Personally, I like the idea that human beings are not static, that spiritual progress is part of our destiny. If we are God's children (rather than his pets), we have to have the spark of divinity within us. This is similar to me to the concept of reincarnation. Have you read anything about the idea of multiple mortal probations? It makes the idea of theosis a little more fleshed out, similar to reincarnation, IMO. Here's a link (with links) to a discussion about that notion: http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2 ... ations/95/

Taking that to the next "logical" step of "what about when God was a snotty punk teenage kid" is mind-boggling, though, I agree. But on a given day, it is also comforting.

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Heber13
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Re: As man is God once was

Post by Heber13 » 22 Jul 2009, 14:47

Valoel wrote:I spent a lot of time studying subjects like Sacred Geometry and other esoteric "mystery school" teachings.
Was that a GE elective class at BYU??? I don't remember those? :lol:
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Tom Haws
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Re: As man is God once was

Post by Tom Haws » 22 Jul 2009, 14:58

Since you asked...here is the way I look at it for now:

I am a spark of God. In me, God is a man. To God I will return. Thus the Father will be again glorified. As I now am, God now is. As God now is, I now am. Division is illusion, and all is one.

Eeeee. Did I say too much? Please don't stone me.
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
----
Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com

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Brian Johnston
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Re: As man is God once was

Post by Brian Johnston » 22 Jul 2009, 15:04

Heber13 wrote:Was that a GE elective class at BYU??? I don't remember those? :lol:
I dove into this years ago when I was really trying to sort out the temple in my mind, and was still mostly TBM (as much as I ever was, I suppose).

If anyone is of the opinion that Joseph borrowed heavily from the Masons, well ... the Masons borrowed heavily from groups in Europe during the middle ages that preserved records of various mystic "schools" of thought, who borrowed heavily from ancient cultures such as Egypt, the Jews and the Sumerians. Going to these sources directly helped me sort out the symbols, or at least know what many other people in the past understood about them. They may not have been right either *shrug* But it helped me personally either way. I now feel connected to a group of people I admire, stretching back thousands of years who all asked the same questions.
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.

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Rix
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Re: As man is God once was

Post by Rix » 22 Jul 2009, 15:14

Tom Haws wrote:
I am a spark of God. In me, God is a man. To God I will return. Thus the Father will be again glorified. As I now am, God now is. As God now is, I now am. Division is illusion, and all is one.
Wow, that's beautiful! I agree completely!
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche

God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that. -- Joseph Campbell

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HiJolly
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Re: As man is God once was

Post by HiJolly » 22 Jul 2009, 15:15

questioning89 wrote:So I was reading Mormon Doctrine and was reading talks by other leaders about the nature of God. Im not going to lie, I am very uncomfortable with the idea that God had a God, and that God had a God etc. I am very uncomfortable with the idea that God "became" God. I mean in my opinion it goes against the scriptures, and really no longer makes him the Almighty God. What do you guys think?
I'm good with it. I see God as existing in two senses. The first is the 'eternal and unchanging' view, the transcendent God, source of 'Adam Kadmon' that has no body, parts (but does have passions!) but is the sum of all intelligences. This is the image of perfection, the ineffible standard of what it is to be a god. It is also the source of all things that are.

The second is the sparks that filled the universe upon the shattering of the vessels (Adam Kadmon) containing the sparks. These are the intelligences within you, me, and everything. As these intelligences increase in wisdom and capacity, they model themselves after the image of God, becoming, eventually, a fullfillment of godliness. Someday, we (the intelligences) will repair the broken vessels (become One) and restore Adam Kadmon, then become one literally with the One in transcendence; and then prepare to continue the eternal round yet again.

Well, that's my opinion.


HiJolly
Mystic Heretic
Men are not moved by events but by their interpretations.
-- The Stoic Epictetus

Curt Sunshine
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Re: As man is God once was

Post by Curt Sunshine » 22 Jul 2009, 16:30

I like the concept of one eternal round - one great whole - eternal progression - etc.

I'm ambivalent about that part of the famous couplet - but I like the general vision it presents if seen as others already have articulated. (Tom, I love the way you phrased your comment.)
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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