WTF is Faith, anyway?

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J-Pip
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by J-Pip »

Read Hebrews chapter 11. It starts out with the definition of faith. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for and the proof of things not seen. The author of Hebrews goes on to state that it's by faith that we understand that God created the universe, we don't know how he did it, but we see things in creation and we "know" that God did it.
All the examples of faith that follow pretty much describe faith as being trust. I think Valoel put it pretty well here as well:
Valoel wrote: On a more serious note, I think we run into major language problems in English when using one word "Faith" to describe so many complex thoughts and feelings. I've experienced something similar in my journey. I feel like my faith (confidence) has increased a lot in the past couple years. It gives me much more faith (hope) in the goodness and mercy of God. It gives me more faith (will, focus) to move forward along my journey, even though I had to sacrifice my attachment to feeling like I had real faith (understanding in an intellectual sense) in the nature and characteristics of the divine.

Faith is what it's all about. Heb 11: says it's impossible to please God without faith. The Bible teaches that it's by faith that we have eternal life. But faith has to be in something, faith has to have an object. Jesus Christ should be that object. One of the problems I feel the LDS church has is that it's doctrines promote faith in the church and not in Jesus, that Jesus is just a part of the process. I think Jesus is the only part of the process. Another topic to consider with faith is what Paul teaches in Ephesians 2:8-9. By grace we are saved through faith, not by any doing of our own- it's a gift from God, not obtained by any works. We can't earn faith or salvation, it's given to us.
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spacious maze
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by spacious maze »

I think faith is our best euphemism of "truth", this side of the veil.
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Brian Johnston
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by Brian Johnston »

J-Pip wrote:One of the problems I feel the LDS church has is that it's doctrines promote faith in the church and not in Jesus, that Jesus is just a part of the process. I think Jesus is the only part of the process.
This is a common observation from people who are not feeling "fed" spiritually at Church, those that feel there is some essential thing lacking from their experience. I think it is a fair criticism. Our brothers and sisters run into that trap, where the Church fails them at some point because their faith was in the Church and not in their Savior. The Church (a human run organization) and the people will fail us.
J-Pip wrote: Another topic to consider with faith is what Paul teaches in Ephesians 2:8-9. By grace we are saved through faith, not by any doing of our own- it's a gift from God, not obtained by any works. We can't earn faith or salvation, it's given to us.
In general, the people in this community are very familiar with scripture J-Pip. We don't tend to need a lot of quotes recited. You've posted similar advice elsewhere in the form of Bible quotes. We all have a copy of the Bible. What can you share from your experience and your personal journey of faith? Have you struggled with faith and found a way to recapture those feelings of the Spirit by seeing things from a different and new perspective? That is what really helps us here in our community -- that sharing.

What would you say to someone who struggles with the existence of God, or that it is important to have faith? Simply saying "try harder" or "just do it" doesn't really satisfy most concerns. Those answers are obvious to someone blessed with the spiritual gift of faith. They are irritating answers to people who are struggling. It ends up sounding like "you don't know 'cause you didn't try." When in fact many that come here have given their all for that experience of confirmation so often talked about in the Church.
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.
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Tom Haws
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by Tom Haws »

Valoel wrote:We all have a copy of the Bible. What can you share from your experience and your personal journey of faith?
Yes. We'd love to hear your story. Tell us a story!
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
----
Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com
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Heber13
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

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Valoel wrote:Simply saying "try harder" or "just do it" doesn't really satisfy most concerns. Those answers are obvious to someone blessed with the spiritual gift of faith. They are irritating answers to people who are struggling. It ends up sounding like "you don't know 'cause you didn't try." When in fact many that come here have given their all for that experience of confirmation so often talked about in the Church.
I think that is interesting you put that as the "gift" of faith...which I think is truly a gift some people have, just like others have a gift to see or hear heavenly beings (not my gift).

If the plan of salvation was simple where we all had the same gifts, talents, and intellect, it would be easy to write a book that had a 12 step program to salvation and be done.... but everything becomes so personal and unique.

Eventually, all things boil down to the light and truth of God, but there are so many different manifestations of it, our faith is just that...OURS, unique to our personality and experience, and is flawed when we try to express it in words that are inadequate for such a subject.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
Shiz
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by Shiz »

Valoel wrote:In general, the people in this community are very familiar with scripture J-Pip. We don't tend to need a lot of quotes recited. You've posted similar advice elsewhere in the form of Bible quotes. We all have a copy of the Bible. What can you share from your experience and your personal journey of faith? Have you struggled with faith and found a way to recapture those feelings of the Spirit by seeing things from a different and new perspective? That is what really helps us here in our community -- that sharing.

What would you say to someone who struggles with the existence of God, or that it is important to have faith? Simply saying "try harder" or "just do it" doesn't really satisfy most concerns. Those answers are obvious to someone blessed with the spiritual gift of faith. They are irritating answers to people who are struggling. It ends up sounding like "you don't know 'cause you didn't try." When in fact many that come here have given their all for that experience of confirmation so often talked about in the Church.
I recently learned about faith from a different perspective. It stems from a common term, "God fearing". A non-LDS friend of mine and I were talking about faith and what makes people believe. The best reason we could think of is that we become afraid of the unknown life hereafter. Or lack thereof. With me, my faith probably really sparked when I realized I was mortal, that I would die someday. That is when I grasped the faith I was taught growing up. I then served an honorable mission of which I will never regret, even if it ends up the church isn’t true.

More recently though, I have been questioning faith and wether or not God really does exist. I want to believe that he does, more than anything. Because then I would know that I will continue to exist beyond this mortal state. Along this line of thought is where I realized my fresh view on faith. That a believing person, no matter what their religion, feels this fear. They realize this and according to how afraid they are of it, can be a measure of their faith.

Now I personally feel that if God were going to judge a person for which religion they chose, he would make it clear which religion is his one and true religion. Which is why I don’t believe a catholic perspective that if you don’t join their church in this life, your damned. As far as I have been taught the LDS believe that you still have a choice in the life to come about wether or not you want to continue to follow his plan and accept any temple work done for you. Leading me to believe that there is more to our eternal existence than we can fathom. Also that if you remain un-affiliated to any religion while in this life that he won’t judge you on that. What I feel we will be judged on is our works, our actions, and most importantly how we treat each other. Because the only thing we can take with us are our knowledge, our beliefs and our relationships with each other.

I’ve resolved that I want to continue to go to church despite my lack of faith in any religion. That going to church is good because it gets me out to socialize with my neighbors. And it’s fun to have theological discussions. But despite any theological discussions' conclusion, I can't help but feel listening to such discussions is like listening to children arguing over who's imaginary friend is right.
swimordie
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by swimordie »

Shiz wrote:That going to church is good because it gets me out to socialize with my neighbors. And it’s fun to have theological discussions. But despite any theological discussions' conclusion, I can't help but feel listening to such discussions is like listening to children arguing over who's imaginary friend is right.
That's so funny, because it's true. :lol: :lol:

Interesting thought. I'm sure there's something to the fear thing. Although it may not just be the fear of death. I can see that a fear of other's feelings about oneself may also potentially contribute to one's "meaning" of faith. For example, a spouses orthodoxy can definitely affect the "meaning" of faith to the other spouse. Fear of being in conflict with said spouse, could change/mold the concept of faith in the other spouse.
Perfectionism hasn't served me. I think I am done with it. -Poppyseed
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HiJolly
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by HiJolly »

Shiz wrote:More recently though, I have been questioning faith and wether or not God really does exist. I want to believe that he does, more than anything. Because then I would know that I will continue to exist beyond this mortal state. Along this line of thought is where I realized my fresh view on faith. That a believing person, no matter what their religion, feels this fear. They realize this and according to how afraid they are of it, can be a measure of their faith.

Now I personally feel that if God were going to judge a person for which religion they chose, he would make it clear which religion is his one and true religion. Which is why I don’t believe a catholic perspective that if you don’t join their church in this life, your damned. As far as I have been taught the LDS believe that you still have a choice in the life to come about wether or not you want to continue to follow his plan and accept any temple work done for you. Leading me to believe that there is more to our eternal existence than we can fathom. Also that if you remain un-affiliated to any religion while in this life that he won’t judge you on that. What I feel we will be judged on is our works, our actions, and most importantly how we treat each other. Because the only thing we can take with us are our knowledge, our beliefs and our relationships with each other.

I’ve resolved that I want to continue to go to church despite my lack of faith in any religion. That going to church is good because it gets me out to socialize with my neighbors. And it’s fun to have theological discussions. But despite any theological discussions' conclusion, I can't help but feel listening to such discussions is like listening to children arguing over who's imaginary friend is right.
Excellent comments, Shiz! Thanks for writing this!

HiJolly
Men are not moved by events but by their interpretations.
-- The Stoic Epictetus
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Tom Haws
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by Tom Haws »

Shiz wrote:That a believing person, no matter what their religion, feels this fear.
I think this is why a lot of Americans call themselves non-religious believers. They have a reality transcendent of the physical (I call it God and Heaven or Afterlife), but aren't comfortable with the traditions, hierarchy, authority model, and general baggage that go with religions. We at StayLDS, one the other hand, are believing that the religions are where the people are. And if we want to learn compassion and love, we need to be where those people are. And that is in church.
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
----
Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com
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jmb275
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by jmb275 »

Shiz wrote:I can't help but feel listening to such discussions is like listening to children arguing over who's imaginary friend is right.
Yeah, I often feel like this with a lot of arguments of this nature. In fact, I often feel like many people try to invent things that fit due to basic assumptions they've made, without ever questioning the assumptions. But we all do that at some level I suppose. I'm sure I'm guilty of it.

I find that for me, the most honest position is to admit I don't know. I just don't know what there is upon death. I don't know if there's a God (although I like the idea), I don't know if Joseph Smith wrote the BoM or whether he translated it (although I currently lean toward the former).

As hawkgrrrl mentioned in another thread, it's like open-minded agnostic humanism.
I am like a huge, rough stone rolling down from a high mountain; and the only polishing I get is when some corner gets rubbed off by coming in contact with something else, striking with accelerated force against religious bigotry, priestcraft, lawyer-craft, doctor-craft, lying editors, suborned judges and jurors, and the authority of perjured executives, backed by mobs, blasphemers, licentious and corrupt men and women--all hell knocking off a corner here and a corner there.
- Joseph Smith, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 304)
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