WTF is Faith, anyway?

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
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J-Pip
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by J-Pip » 13 Aug 2009, 21:35

First of all I think I ought to clarify something. By ungodly creature I mean us , all of us. Our flesh, our sick hearts. I didn't mean it as an attack to anyone. I'm probably the worst person on here, when it comes to sin. Another thing to clarify that was brought to my attention. My avatar. It's a spin on the Triumph logo.
in the 60's Triumph racers had trouble with their bikes. I'm an avid motorcyclist and triumph fan. It was the only avatar size pic I could find in my cluttered picture folder.

Poppyseed, you asked so i'll give my opinion. I think it's wrong to look inward for God. I don't think you'll find Him there. I don't believe that any of us have any righteousness in us ourselves. I agree that when were born again, the old dies and we become new creatures. What I would call sactification, but there's nothing in me that is Godly apart form the spirit, But that would be God and not me. It sounds Deepak Chopra esque to look into ourselves to find God, I don't think it's right and could become an Idol for us. That's what I think.

Ray,
I'm not Mormon, I was for about 20 years, so your right there. I didn't mean to Chastise anyone though, I was sharing scripture with someone who was struggling to know what faith is. Valolel told me not to quote scripture, so I replied. For me scripture is the best place to look for answers. I do use the bible as my guide and believe it to be the infallible word of God. I haven't addressed many topics that could spark doctrinal debates about what's right and what's wrong simply because this isn't the forum for it. This forum is for people struggling with their LDS faith right? Well I struggled with my faith and found something that helped. I'm trying to help others. I'm not saying that everyone has to leave the LDS church I really don't think they do. For me it seemed the right thing to do, so I did. But if someone is struggling with faith, I believe they need focus on finding who our faith should be in - JESUS
I don't agree with many things about the LDS church, and I haven't addressed those here, when I've found a topic I though I could help on I did. And I believe I've done so in a way that doesn't violate the rules of this site. Stay LDS, I don't care what people call themselves, I just want to help others come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. For me I didn't have that. I'm sure there are people here that don't know if they have that. So ban me if you want, I don't see where I've violated the rules.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 14 Aug 2009, 05:37

Thanks, J-Pip, for that clarification. I really appreciate it.

Honestly, many of us quote scruptures in our posts and comments. That wasn't my concern; it was that you quoted lots of verses strictly from the Bible and seemed to say that we HAD to take the Bible as the inerrant word of God to understand His word and will. That simply doesn't fit our mission here, and it seemed to be a slap at what we are trying to accomplish here - to create a place where people who think and view things differently can discuss difficult things without being called to repentance or encouraged to leave the LDS Church.

As I said in the comment, if that is not your intention, I apologize - sincerely. We simply have had an upsurge in trollish activity lately, so we have to be careful.

You are welcome to participate here. Just try not to imply that we have to accept the Bible as inerrant - and don't actively encourage people to leave the Church. I have said openly that I understand why some members leave, and even that it might be the best option for some people to take a break for a while and "find themselves" - so I really do understand and am fine with your decision. Please, just be careful about your wording.

I am putting away the proverbial admin hammer. :D
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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bridget_night
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by bridget_night » 14 Aug 2009, 05:45

I used to wonder alot about FAITH. Like why does God require us to have faith? I don't like not being sure of things. Why doesn't God just come with a flaming chariot across the sky and say in a loud voice, "And now a word from your creator!" Well, a very wise man in my ward gave me an explanation that finally made sense. He said, "If we knew for sure there was a hereafter and a big reward or big punishment, we might be good for the reward or good because of fear of punishment. Not knowing for sure, God can see what is in our hearts. Do we want to be good just for goodness sake? The older I get, the less I feel I know, but I have decided to live my life by the type of person and world I want to be. I pick up garbage in the street because I like a clean neighborhood. I visit teach my sisters because I want a ward and world where people care about each other.

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Tom Haws
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by Tom Haws » 14 Aug 2009, 08:52

J-Pip wrote:I don't care what people call themselves, I just want to help others come to a saving knowledge of Jesus.
It's wonderful for you to want others to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. As a matter of fact, that's what I would like also. I would even go so far as to say I personally would like to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus and J-Pip and Ray and Valoel and Tom and the Father.

Remember that the mission of this site is clear and simple. We want to assist each other to find a new, positive way of being within the LDS Church. I invite you to examine your own heart to find whether you can honestly support that mission, then act accordingly.

Tom
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
----
Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com

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Heber13
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by Heber13 » 14 Aug 2009, 09:09

bridget_night wrote:The older I get, the less I feel I know, but I have decided to live my life by the type of person and world I want to be. I pick up garbage in the street because I like a clean neighborhood. I visit teach my sisters because I want a ward and world where people care about each other.
Bridget, it sounds like you have great faith. You want to be a good person and have a nice neighborhood and relationships, which motivates you to act in a way to make that happen. That's the best example of what faith is...wanting it and acting to acieve it.

If our faith is misplaced...I want to be happy and have good relationships, so I will follow anti-american terrorist organizations and participate in bombings that kill innocent people...well, that just doesn't follow does it? (sorry bad example, but just what came to mind without having a better example).

My faith is that I want to be happy in the eternities, so I want to be happy today and make choices that help me find what God would have me do so that I can avoid problems tomorrow.

I like J-Pip's focus on Christ, because that is where I believe the example is given of how to find happiness in the eternities, through Christ's atonement and His teachings. My faith, however, has changed from strict obedience to Church guidelines to greater and deeper understanding of Christ's saving graces and teachings that are intended to make us search our souls inwardly to find God within us, and then act (faith) outwardly to see the consequences/outcomes and validate my inner beliefs.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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bridget_night
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by bridget_night » 15 Aug 2009, 03:42

Hi Heber, I too like the idea of following Christ as the best way to lasting happiness. One of the things that impresses me the most about Christ is that he taught to follow the spirit of the law verses the letter of the law. When the Pharises asked him "What is the greatest commandment" we know what he said. "To love God and your neighbor." "And by this hang all the laws and the prophets" This is the only absolute law. So, I do not have to remember a 1000 commandments and rules like the early Jews did. I just have to ask myself "Is this a loving thing to do." So, even though 'going to church on Sunday' may be a commandment to keeping the Sabbath Day holy." The higher law of love kicked in for me one Sunday, when my oldest son was very depressed and needed me to talk to him that morning instead.

This is why I love "Dallin Oaks' talk on "Special Cases", which I think I posted once on this group somewhere. Bridget

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timpanogos
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by timpanogos » 30 Aug 2009, 21:45

I feel an old pet-peeve working its way to the surface:

Take the "Doctrine and Covenants". The actual title was given because the original publishing actually contained two distinct sections. The "Doctrine" was a collection of works from the "School of the Prophets" entitled .... Drum roll.... "The Lectures on Faith". Of course the "Covenants" were the commandments of God.

For some reason, the doctrine was removed from the D&C leaving us only the covenants. And just as surprisingly most LDS have never read the doctrine portion.

The Lectures on Faith, surprise surprise, covers this exact question ... "what is faith"

You might find that JS's take on it differs from your standard, meeting house versions.

Well worth the read.
Push to the Peak!

Curt Sunshine
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 31 Aug 2009, 06:06

Absolutely, the Lectures on Faith are fascinating. Thanks for bringing them up here.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Bill Atkinson
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by Bill Atkinson » 31 Aug 2009, 06:28

timpanogos

Yes, the Lectures on Faith are well worth reading and really thinking about. Thanks for reminding us.

They were removed in the 1921 version of the D&C which was a major reworking of the footnotes. At the time the Brethern said that the Lectures were never intended to be thought of as "scripture" but as a set of theological lessons or lectures. There is quite a debate on who actually wrote each of the lectures and it is likely that though Joseph was instrumental in the development of all the ideas found in them he was not necessarily the author it is likely that Sidney Rigdon was the major writer. That may be another reason that they decided to remove them in 1921.
All true artists, whether they know it or not, create from a place of no-mind, from inner stillness.
Ernest Ludwig Kirchner

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timpanogos
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Re: WTF is Faith, anyway?

Post by timpanogos » 31 Aug 2009, 07:23

From time to time, there are people that do something extremely strange based on the exercise of faith as outlined in the Lectures on Faith. Namely the requirement of Action.

As hard/sad/unusual some of these events have been ... there is an admiration within me for these people that they have the where-with-all to exercise their faith with the total expectation of moving mountains results, come hell or high water.

It is my own personal attempts at exercising faith to this definition that left me in a deep pit of despair and my current situation.

My heart goes out to Nick, as he is headed for a fall.

Nick

Bottom line ... be careful out there with the full strength stuff.
Push to the Peak!

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