When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

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dash1730
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by dash1730 » 26 Dec 2013, 21:27

DevilsAdvocate,
Sorry my epistle rambled, and obviously was unclear. I agree that the strict taboo of not partaking is often self defeating. I was trying to make that point by citing the Jews who stress responsible drinking have a lower alcoholism rate than the Mormons.
I may not walk the straight and narrow, but I try to cross it as often as I can.
---J Golden Kimball

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cwald
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by cwald » 26 Dec 2013, 21:35

dash1730 wrote:DevilsAdvocate,
Sorry my epistle rambled, and obviously was unclear. I agree that the strict taboo of not partaking is often self defeating. I was trying to make that point by citing the Jews who stress responsible drinking have a lower alcoholism rate than the Mormons.
Thanks for the clarification...because that is not the message I got from your post.

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  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

Curt Sunshine
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 26 Dec 2013, 22:43

I mostly agree with the sentiment expressed here that moderation in interpretation of the WofW would be preferable.

Personally, I will have an occasional glass of wine for medicinal purposes just like I would take cough syrup (which likewise has alcohol). But I don't think that is an issue for qualifying for a temple recommend.
Before we get too self-righteous about never tasting the forbidden
Fwiw, when a comment starts with that initial sentence, and when it then adds more statements like it, I think the message is quite clear that the commenter believes moderation would be better as a general rule than strict enforcement. However, as described, there are benefits to strict interpretation for some people, and some of those benefits are significant.

I'm going to say this kind of from my admin perspective (and strictly from an analytical, therapy-ish stance - not meant at all as negative criticism, in the classic sense :P ), even though this really is a personal comment at heart, but it's really important here, at this particular forum, to read comments as charitably as possible - or, at the very least, to see the possibilities within comments. Further clarification can be added, but our first reaction, especially to known participants, ought to more charitable than critical.

A big part of our mission is focused on coping mechanisms - strategies to deal with issues we face in staying LDS. Thus, this is a good place to practice how to relate to people in a less controlled environment - like church, or even family. If statements here, from people who are here for similar reasons, can be misinterpreted easily, it's even easier to misinterpret statements elsewhere. Thus, it's good to practice here what will help elsewhere.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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mackay11
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When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by mackay11 » 27 Dec 2013, 07:24

Obesity is a bigger issue in developed markets than alcoholism. But no-one in the church is adding food to the banned substances list. It's possible to eat moderately and to eat abusively. Obesity cause more preventable deaths per year than alcoholism.

An addiction to food is potentially just as destructive as alcoholism, in a different way, but far less warned against.

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mackay11
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When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by mackay11 » 27 Dec 2013, 07:39

My point in the previous post is not to have a go at people with food addictions but to point out that while the majority of people can eat saturated fats or refined sugars responsibly/with moderation, others can't. So why don't we add those to the banned list to protect the weakest of the saints who having eating disorders?

Or perhaps we should just accept that grow ups are better off given the respect they deserve to treat or mistreat their body as they see fit.

This is why I would happily ditch the WoW from the TR questions and even from the D&C entirely.

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Tim
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When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by Tim » 27 Dec 2013, 11:05

A painless path forward is to quietly remove it from the TR questions. This would relegate it back to a word of wisdom.

It would make it much easier to remain a member of this church if the temple recommend questions went away entirely. They were set up to protect the sanctity of the temple. Well now anybody in the entire world can watch the entire ceremony on YouTube, and get a transcript with a few clicks. Google knows all. So now all it does is break up families (can't attend weddings, the idea of empty seats in the CK) and causes people who leave to be bitter and fight against the church because it is not possible to quietly stop believing. It forces members to be all in, all out, or to lie to their bishops. Is the real underlying reason for the TR interview because it increases tithing revenue? Because the sanctity of the temple is lost, and forever. Sad, but true.

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Alex
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by Alex » 27 Dec 2013, 12:13

This thread may be about to take a turn because of what I'm about to say...I hope not, but it's relevant to the topic and recent comments. Feel free to move on and keep things on topic regarding the question asked by the OP.

A couple days ago my wife asked me for a divorce. Yes, it was on Christmas Day. The biggest reason is that I've had difficulty keeping the WoW.

Over the years I've made the choice to consume beer, usually on a business trip but sometimes privately at home. Ultimately my wife asked me or discovered discarded cans and I told her the truth--I felt ashamed, sad, and like a terrible person. I wasn't honest with her when I slipped back and I was breaking the WoW commandment. I could go many months, then the opportunity to have a beer would come and I'd make the choice to have a few.

A few months ago admitted to her that I had consumed beer. She was upset. But trying to be more honest, I admitted that I could never say I wouldn't drink again....and that I almost certainly would. She said she just wanted honesty and she could live with that. I even brought home a six pack and drank a couple in front of her.

About this time I also discovered the history of the WoW--it's enforcement, as a policy, and changes over time. It's been well documented on this forum so I won't rehash it. I became angry that I had felt so ashamed and it had put a strain on our marriage...the only thing I have been dishonest with her about. Other things (like service in the bishopric) challenged my faith and I've been in a classic crisis ever since.

During that time I've distanced myself from her emotionally. I've been coming back, slowly, but she's had enough. I've apologized and want to stay married, but I also know that I feel liberated by my honesty with her and don't want to make promises that I can't keep or believe in. What I didn't realize was that she was distraught.

There's always more to the story than we can put down in words here; and this posting it's coming from my perspective, not hers. But the significance of recounting this is that the WoW plays a central role in the ending of my marriage. I know that I could--or could have, as it may be too late now--completely repent, get counseling, etc....I have a role in this. I play a part. But she feels, perhaps correctly, that I'm untrustworthy and put her through mental anguish these last few months to the point that there's no going back. I see it as a faith crisis and unwillingness to be dishonest again, while she sees it as the last straw.

There has got to be some good that comes from this. "All experience is for our good," as we've heard. I know that I'm more than just someone who breaks the WoW--I've otherwise been a good husband, father, provider, and neighbor. But that is what's defining me in the eyes of my wife.

That's all. I'll be fine and life will go on. Thanks for letting me share bit of sadness, it's therapeutic at this moment for me.
I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them. (Words of Joseph Smith, p. 204 – May 18, 1843)

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mom3
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by mom3 » 27 Dec 2013, 14:23

Alex,

I have thought of so many ideas I would send you, books to read, counselors to seek out, and so on. On reflection though, I send my heart and hugs to you. It is days like this in all of our lives, that I am thankful for internet groups and boards, if only for a moment we feel our cry is heard. Because I believe in God - I pray you will find God, and feel God as you walk the road ahead.

Thank you for trusting us with your heartache. That is a gift. We will used it sacredly.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Curt Sunshine
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 27 Dec 2013, 17:44

What mom3 said, Alex. Anything more would be gratuitous and without proper foundation.

God bless you, whatever happens.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

GBSmith
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by GBSmith » 28 Dec 2013, 00:31

Tim wrote:A painless path forward is to quietly remove it from the TR questions. This would relegate it back to a word of wisdom.
I don't think it will ever happen. It's one of the things that sets mormons apart and if it was done away with it would be another move towards assimilation. People need to feel special and called when they come into the church, something that's over and above belief in Christ. It's one of the reasons, I think, for the temple and all that goes with it. If you can get a recommend you've shown that you're willing to be one of the faithful and that will always include the WoW. The WoW is not the same as in the early days of the church but then not much is anymore.

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