When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

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cwald
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by cwald » 01 Apr 2014, 17:35

DarkJedi wrote:When vegans start living significantly longer than omnivores I might become one.
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scthomas34
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by scthomas34 » 01 Apr 2014, 22:11

Vegans do live longer than omnivores. Studies show that humans are designed to live on a certain amount of calories. High calories diets, omnivores and carnivores, generally have shorter lives sometimes by decades because high amounts of calories speed up the life process of the body. Low calorie diets, herbivores, Seventh day adventist etc. have shown to increase life span because lower calories do not wear out the cells of the body as fast. Of course genes are a factor as well.

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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by DarkJedi » 02 Apr 2014, 03:46

scthomas34 wrote:Vegans do live longer than omnivores. Studies show that humans are designed to live on a certain amount of calories. High calories diets, omnivores and carnivores, generally have shorter lives sometimes by decades because high amounts of calories speed up the life process of the body. Low calorie diets, herbivores, Seventh day adventist etc. have shown to increase life span because lower calories do not wear out the cells of the body as fast. Of course genes are a factor as well.
There is no unbiased scientific study that proves that vegans live longer than omnivores - it is theoretically true but lacks scientific proof. There are studies that show genetics are much more of a factor than anything. You really believe the average SDA is outliving the average Mormon, Catholic, Muslim or Buddhist? I'm not going to get into an argument about it because that's not what these forums are about. I'll just point out that my wife's grandmother is 108. She lives in assisted living, but is probably more lucid than her 80-year-old daughter, knows our names and who we are when we visit, dresses herself and practices good hygiene daily, walks to her meals, uses a cell phone, etc. She grew up in New England, and loves lobster - she ate lobster at least once a week her whole life and makes the meanest Boston baked beans ever. She is also very much a meat and potatoes person, far from being a vegetarian much less a vegan. She outlived three husbands. She never smoked, and only drank socially (usually wine). There is probably a 108 year old vegan out there who is similar to her (I don't know that for sure) - but that's the whole point, there is no 120 year old one.
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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 02 Apr 2014, 07:37

scthomas34 wrote:Yes, sugar from refined carbs, white bread, white pasta, white rice, sugary cereal, sugary fruit juice- of course these will spike blood sugar levels way up. Let me repeat, these are not part of a unrefined foods diets, and these are just as bad as a high amount of high animal product diet. The body does not get a high sugar spike from unrefined plants foods, unless someone is just downing fruit all the time. Unrefined grains, vegetables, some fruits, beans, these are plants that take longer for the body to digest than meats. Starch is a much smaller part of their make then the refined junk foods, because unrefined also has fiber and a lot more to it than just starch. The starch that is in the foods is released much more slowly over time and so there is no sugar rush spike because it is a little given slowly. The body is made to run mostly on glucose, sugar, given over time with amino acids from protein and lipids from fat making a a small part of the diet, 8% for protein is fine and likely the same for fat. Starches have been what civilazation have fed on since the dawn of time and our affluent disease have not shown up til the last century...diabetes comes from the over-consumption of refined white flour, and a lot of sugar, and obesity, not from whole flour foods and unrefined plants foods...The human body is not designed for high meat consumption over decades, never was and never will be. Just because someone is skinny does not mean they are healthy...There are numerous studies documenting the links of high cholesterol to heart disease...
That's part of the problem; even when I went out of my way to eat whole grain bread and cereals, brown rice, etc. I continued to gain weight. Sure I gained even more when I was eating fast food all the time and drinking soft drinks loaded with sugar but even when I tried to diet and exercise I only ended up losing a few pounds and I felt hungry all the time so I would never stick with it for very long. So far the only way I have been able to control my weight in a lasting way is by eating more meat, not less. My recent health check-ups haven't shown any obvious problems in terms of cholesterol, glucose, kidney and liver function, blood pressure, etc. and personally I doubt this would be the case if I hadn't started paying more attention to the amount and type of carbs I was eating.

At first I tried to rationalize and make excuses about how this part of D&C 89 could still be inspired in spite of my direct experience to the contrary but now it is easier for me to simply question why grain should be considered the staff of life and good for everyone to begin with. It makes much more sense to me to interpret D&C 89 as more of a product of the author, time, and place it originally came from than any kind of lasting and universal wisdom. It looks like Joseph Smith simply took what was already most convenient and affordable for many people at the time anyway and then tried to attach some mystical significance to it as if this was just the way it was supposed to be and what God intended from the beginning. It would definitely complicate things to not have refrigeration and other modern technology and have to be butchering animals all the time whenever you wanted to eat meat so it's no surprise that people back then would probably have even more of a tendency to get caught up in the idea of austere diets and preach this as a supposed universal ideal than they do now.

However, the truth is that people lived as hunter/gatherers much longer than they have had developed agriculture so it doesn't make sense to me why we should expect that everyone would quickly adapt to some of the radical and more recent changes in diet especially enough to make something like wheat of all things the "staff of life" that people should supposedly base their entire diet around when it only grows well in specific temperate climates. We already know that there are genetic differences in terms of what health problems some people are more susceptible to than others so I don't see what is so unusual about the fact that some people are more vulnerable to overeating and the impact of certain types of carbohydrate foods than others. Basically it looks to me like D&C 89 has it backwards and it would actually be a better idea in general for people to plan their meals around some source of protein and eat grains and potatoes sparingly, if at all, because that's what will typically satisfy their hunger longer.
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate on 03 Apr 2014, 18:25, edited 1 time in total.
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scthomas34
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by scthomas34 » 03 Apr 2014, 17:28

DevilsAdvocate wrote:It looks like Joseph Smith simply took what was already most convenient and affordable for many people at the time anyway and then tried to attach some mystical significance to it as if this was just the way it was supposed to be and what God intended from the beginning. It would definitely complicate things to not have refrigeration and other modern technology and have to be butchering animals all the time whenever you wanted to eat meat so it's no surprise that people back then would probably have even more of a tendency to get caught up in the cult of austerity and preach this idea as a supposed universal ideal than they do now.
This sounds like a reasonable view except that it is based on faulty assumptions.This assumption that D & C 89 was peddled by JS based on 19th century bias on eating is inaccurate, because the view of the times was not leaned towards a plant based, small meat diet. Meat has always and still is viewed as the food of the strong and affluent and beans the food of the dirt poor. This stems back from the middle ages and much earlier. During the middle ages, the Kings and upper class men ate mutton and venison because they were the only ones with rights to hunt on public land, while the peasants ate the same fava beans and porridge every night with no spices, and very bland. One of the reasons why people were so eager to move to America was because of its vast resources of fishing, hunting, lands for pigs, sheep and cows and crops, whereas Europe was overfishing, and game very scarce due to the overpopulation. In this century, the view has been that people in poor countries are so weak and small because they do not consume animal protein like us rich countries. Suprisingly, studies have come to vastly different conclusions. I serously doubt the early saints, or anyone in this country advocated for a diet of minimal animal meat consumption, this would have been unamerican at the time. Now today, we still fight this war of the right information, because for every study that is found to validate an unrefined plant based diet, the industry hired their own industry advocated scientist, who get the results that the Dairy and Agriculture industry wants. Very few people realize how much money is fed to government from the meat and dairy industries, of course their is a huge conflict of interest here. This smear campaign is the same way the cigarette companies fought the studies on tobacco for decades and decades.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:However, the truth is that people lived as hunter/gatherers much longer than they have had developed agriculture so it doesn't make sense to me why we should expect that everyone would quickly adapt to some of the radical and more recent changes in diet especially enough to make something like wheat of all things the "staff of life" that people should supposedly base their entire diet around when it only grows well in specific temperate climates. We already know that there are genetic differences in terms of what health problems some people are more susceptible to than others so I don't see what is so unusual about the fact that some people are more vulnerable to overeating and the impact of certain types of carbohydrate foods than others. Basically it looks to me like D&C 89 has it backwards and it would actually be a better idea in general for people to plan their meals around some source of protein and eat grains and potatoes sparingly, if at all, because that's what will typically satisfy their hunger longer.

Again, this is another faulty assumption. Hunting, just does not pay off on a regular basis for that to be a main staple. It was really a lot more gathering than it was hunting. The great apes of primarily gatherers.If it were true that humans were hunters gathers than it would show in our body plan. Chimpanzees are 95% vegatarian with way bigger canine teeth than we have. Their only protein really is terminites and some other bugs. If we were hunters for so long than our body would have adapted natural-selected for these traits for this diet, our teeth more pincer-like, not more deer like, our cheekbones more dog-like, not reduced, as they our now. Form follows function, that's how evolution and adaptation works. I feel that the meaning is more important than the literal word for word verse in D & C when it comes to grains, it is clear that grain and herbs of the field are very important, be it wheat, rice, oaks, corn, or whatever.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:That's part of the problem; even when I went out of my way to eat whole grain bread and cereals, brown rice, etc. I continued to gain weight. Sure I gained even more when I was eating fast food all the time and drinking soft drinks loaded with sugar but even when I tried to diet and exercise I only ended up losing a few pounds and I felt hungry all the time so I would never stick with it for very long. So far the only way I have been able to control my weight in a lasting way is by eating more meat, not less. My recent health check-ups haven't shown any obvious problems in terms of cholesterol, glucose, kidney and liver function, blood pressure, etc. and personally I doubt this would be the case if I hadn't started paying more attention to the amount and type of carbs I was eating.
A vegeratarian diet does not mean a good diet. Some vegetarian diets are worse than animal protein based ones. A good diet is 90% of ones diet being foods that whole grain, fruits, and vegetables and highly processed foods, dairy, meats and junk to less than 10% of ones total calories. If you really want to see what a diet of unrefined plants foods will do for you than I suggest completely getting on it for three months and see what it does and how you feel and also look at your cholesterol now and weight and compare it in three months. Just incorporating whole grain breads and cereals, while leaving everything else the same is like going from 6 packs of cigarettes to 4 and expecting to see all of the benefits of no smoking, you have to go all the way.
This especially important if you going to based your whole testimony of the Word of Wisdom on your own anecdotal experience just a couple of experience when you have not accounted for all of the factors going into the before and after. Eating on the mission is the worst diet in the world and it typical for missionaries to look light they should be in the high priest group and then lose the weight when they get home no matter what diet they are on. You probalby could have been on the pancake and eggs diet and lost a lot of weight after the mission. Meats and dairy just do not have the whole package-antioxidants, micro and phyto nutrients, Folate, Vits A-K, calcium, iron, potassium. With meats you get Vits A, the Bs and Iron and thats it. On the unrefined plant food diet, it is normal for your LDL, bad cholesterol to go down to 80. Many doctors are happy if your LDL is below 130 because as a nation everyone Cholesterol is so bad that not real bad is seen as good, when it shouldn't. Your doctor will probalby be happy if you are hovering around being overweight and just not obese, but the unrefined plant food diet takes people back to their high school weight, if they were skinny then.
Caldwell Esseltyn, MD, was given 17 no hope cases of people with heart disease,to test the unrefined plant food. These people had months to live, and they too far gone for stents and bypass surgery to help them. 15 years later, all but one was a live and healthy. This groups average total cholesterol, ldl +HDL, dropped from 257 to 137. Someone show me a meat based diet that can reverse heart disease, the number killer in our country, like that. Dr. Joel Fuhrman treats his patients almost exclusively with a plant based diet approach and his patience typically lose so much weight that relatives and friends wonder if they are healthy. This is normal, our country is just so fat we do not know what normal looks like anymore. The Gershon institute, founded by Charlotte Gerson, MD, have helped thousands recover from the deadliest cancers, diabetes, heart disease, autoimmune disease, arthiritis, etc. In fact, their survival rates for stages 4 melanoma patients is 39% compared to 6% regular, stage 3 survival rate was 74% compared to 24-47% normally. These are huge increases considering that the therapy is fighting a life time of bad eating habits and melanomas late stage low survival rate. Where is a meat based diet that can do that. I do not sell any products, I do not get any money or benefit in any way from this kind of information getting out other than I know people will get better. We are a nation of largely fat and sick people. It is embarassing to walk into church and see how many people are overweight. Our church largely does not keep the Word of wisdom. It is a combination of way too much animal products, empty carbs and processed foods

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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 04 Apr 2014, 07:29

scthomas34 wrote:
DevilsAdvocate wrote:However, the truth is that people lived as hunter/gatherers much longer than they have had developed agriculture so it doesn't make sense to me why we should expect that everyone would quickly adapt to some of the radical and more recent changes in diet especially enough to make something like wheat of all things the "staff of life" that people should supposedly base their entire diet around when it only grows well in specific temperate climates. We already know that there are genetic differences in terms of what health problems some people are more susceptible to than others so I don't see what is so unusual about the fact that some people are more vulnerable to overeating and the impact of certain types of carbohydrate foods than others. Basically it looks to me like D&C 89 has it backwards and it would actually be a better idea in general for people to plan their meals around some source of protein and eat grains and potatoes sparingly, if at all, because that's what will typically satisfy their hunger longer.

Again, this is another faulty assumption. Hunting, just does not pay off on a regular basis for that to be a main staple. It was really a lot more gathering than it was hunting. The great apes of primarily gatherers.If it were true that humans were hunters gathers than it would show in our body plan. Chimpanzees are 95% vegatarian with way bigger canine teeth than we have. Their only protein really is terminites and some other bugs. If we were hunters for so long than our body would have adapted natural-selected for these traits for this diet, our teeth more pincer-like, not more deer like, our cheekbones more dog-like, not reduced, as they our now. Form follows function, that's how evolution and adaptation works. I feel that the meaning is more important than the literal word for word verse in D & C when it comes to grains, it is clear that grain and herbs of the field are very important, be it wheat, rice, oaks, corn, or whatever.
I'm not saying people should be carnivores, my point was simply that meat has been a part of people's diet longer than they have been growing wheat, rice, corn, etc. so the fact that many people still react better to meat without overeating than some of these newer food sources isn't necessarily that unusual or unexpected. What sounds like a false assumption to me is the idea that the fact that people don't have different teeth and other physiological changes somehow proves that meat isn't any good for them. Think about it; it's not like they needed to be able to grab a zebra or whatever by the throat with their teeth like a lion, they already had spears and other hand tools they could use instead of teeth and claws. So as long as they could digest meat well enough to be able to pass their genes on to future generations then any genetic variations to optimize meat consumption even more would have been no real competitive advantage and there is no reason whatsoever that we should expect to see differences like this no matter how much meat they typically consumed.
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate on 04 Apr 2014, 07:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 04 Apr 2014, 07:37

scthomas34 wrote:A vegeratarian diet does not mean a good diet. Some vegetarian diets are worse than animal protein based ones. A good diet is 90% of ones diet being foods that whole grain, fruits, and vegetables and highly processed foods, dairy, meats and junk to less than 10% of ones total calories. If you really want to see what a diet of unrefined plants foods will do for you than I suggest completely getting on it for three months and see what it does and how you feel and also look at your cholesterol now and weight and compare it in three months. Just incorporating whole grain breads and cereals, while leaving everything else the same is like going from 6 packs of cigarettes to 4 and expecting to see all of the benefits of no smoking, you have to go all the way...This especially important if you going to based your whole testimony of the Word of Wisdom on your own anecdotal experience just a couple of experience when you have not accounted for all of the factors going into the before and after....unrefined plant food diet takes people back to their high school weight...Someone show me a meat based diet that can reverse heart disease, the number killer in our country...
I don't really want to obsess about diet and health that much. My main concern was simply that I don't want to frequently feel hungry while gaining weight the way I did when I thought my diet was already healthy based on what D&C 89 says and other questionable advice I had heard like the old food pyramid. I am already satisfied with the results I am getting from eating moderate amounts of meat and watching the amount and types of carbs I eat. Also, there is more to food and drink than their basic function and trying to find the best possible diet in terms of health as if it is some kind of contest or race. For example, most desserts are clearly not the best possible thing to eat but people will continue to eat them mostly because it is something they enjoy. If you take all or most of the enjoyment out of life then what are you really left with? To me it's more about trying to find a balance I can live with and feel good about overall than focusing mostly on one isolated consideration like what is always the best possible thing to eat and drink in terms of health. So I doubt I will ever stop eating meat but even if I did I still think something like beans would be a better staple food over the long term than wheat, potatoes, etc. because they contain more protein and fiber.
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate on 06 Apr 2014, 11:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by scthomas34 » 05 Apr 2014, 22:02

I won't drag this post on anymore since I think we both feel we have thoroughly worn it out. I would say though that the switch to a diet with very little animal products has not been as big a shift as my wife and I have thought and the life style is not really that different. We got burnt out on bean dishes really fast, but we have found better tasting replacements. We have replaced our reg cheese with almost cheese, milk with almond milk, and of course veggie burgers, tofu mayonaise. We have to say that most things are not really that different, soy salad with tofu mayonaise taste a heck of a lot like chicken salad. A lot more salads, and whole grain cereals and quinoa dishes. Be more important we eat a lot more cultural dishes, food that is more adventorous, which is a lot different than the standard american 7 dish rotation diet. I know you didn't ask for this info and a lot of members of this ward are probably rolling their eyes, but I just wanted to put the info out there if anyone gets to the point where the doctor wants them largely off their meat because of heart disease or other reasons, their are ways out their have healthy food that tastes good. There are a number of desserts as well that are can healthy and taste. There are some meats that have good effects like those with omega 3s, salmon etc. And Oysters have are loaded with minerals that are sometimes hard to get in other sources. I cooked an awesome Tucson, veggie and bean soup tonight, olive garden quality, with a 7 leaf salad, arugula, raddichio, butterhead, romaine, spinach. Take care :smile:

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