When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

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Ann
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by Ann » 31 Dec 2013, 17:48

DevilsAdvocate wrote:
Personally I think many Church leaders got used to seeing members typically make a clear choice whether they wanted to be in or out before they were married and then generally continue to be relatively content to endure to the end after they had committed to the LDS way of life. So we mostly hear about a few major milestones like full time missions and temple marriage and then it is supposedly happily ever after and the end based the impression given by many messages in the Church. However because of the internet exposing problems with the Church's story we are now ending up with more mixed-faith marriages than in the past and the Church culture hasn't adapted to this lasting change very well yet. Rather than expecting disaffected members to re-gain their testimony and repent I think Church leaders should consider what will happen if many of them never go back to the way they were before repeating some of the same divisive and unrealistic ideas in conference talks, official lessons, etc. People are suffering on both sides of the traditional belief spectrum largely as a result of forces beyond their control and I don't see the Church doing that much to help the situation.
So true. In reading Alex's story, I feel for them both.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

conflicted testimony
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by conflicted testimony » 01 Jan 2014, 05:07

Alex, I hope I don't offend you with what I am about to post. I thought I would share my issue with my husband and maybe shed some light on how your wife could be feeling. This will be hard for me as I am waiting until after Christmas/New Year to take action and leave the marriage.

My husband gambles, he has been through counselling - it is a very serious issue. He has almost bought us to ruin. Whilst the gambling can destroy us, that is not what puts the strain on the marriage, the biggest problem is the deceit, lies and lack of trust.

He says he wont do it again, he knows the consequence, he tries to hide it, he lies about it. I find out. He promises to ever do it again, there is a period of calm and the cycle starts all over again. I feel like a dog that has been kicked over and over and still comes back for more.

I was devastated that he would lie to me. If he lies to me about that, what else does he lie about. I start searching further and start finding lies in things that perhaps aren't lies. He bought golf clubs without discussing it with me or telling me - I see an amount gone from our account from the golf club where there are poker machines, I instantly jump to the conclusion that he is gambling again. Huge fight ensues, I simply don't believe him about anything anymore. I also find lies about things he doesn't even need to lie about because we are in such a precarious situation. He thinks that is helping, all it does is put another nail in the coffin.

Because of the constant lies and cover ups over the years my distrust of him is huge, it has totally changed and perhaps destroyed my love for him. I want to love him, but every time I open my heart I find another instance of lies and deceit - whether real or imagined - and my heart hardens just a bit more - even if he is innocent because I know I can never feel safe with him again.

So it isn't the act of gambling that will cause our marriage to break down, it is not that one sin/fault, it is the actions and feelings around it. I wonder if your wife feels somewhat similar?

Maybe in your case it is not just the Wow that is the issue. Is your wife willing to give it one last go and try counselling? Maybe that will bring out the real issues and maybe you will have a chance. Though you would both have to change in some way and make compromises, and that will be hard if you both think you are right.

Of course your situation is totally different to mine, your life is different, your wife is different, your culture is different and this may be of no relation at all, but the take away message could be to look further than the superficial Wow issue.

As an aside - do not use an LDS counsellor if you do manage to get to that point. My Bishop at the time of the worst of it, when I had consulted a divorce lawyer, counselled that I should forgive him and it wasn't reason to end a marriage. I think DH took that to mean I would continue to forgive him forever and we almost lost the house.

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Alex
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by Alex » 01 Jan 2014, 08:06

conflicted testimony wrote:Alex, I hope I don't offend you with what I am about to post. I thought I would share my issue with my husband and maybe shed some light on how your wife could be feeling. This will be hard for me as I am waiting until after Christmas/New Year to take action and leave the marriage.
Not offended at all, thanks for sharing. I'd say your situation and feelings sound nearly identical to my wife's. It's amazingly similar.

There has been disappointment for her, certainly, but as you point out there are a lot of imagined disappointments as well. You said, "I simply don't believe him about anything anymore" and that's the case here...my dishonestly has been limited to WoW but my wife says the same thing. It hurts and I know I am to blame.

I bought her flowers last night. Of course they had to be plastic (but realistic) flowers due to the season. She wasn't impressed and all she could say was that I should have done that a long time ago. After another series of mean-spirited remarks to me last night, I said that I know it's over and don't wish to be humiliated anymore. There was suddenly a whole new tone between us; I asked last night and so today we'll discuss budgets, sale of the home, me moving out, etc. I'll file the intent to divorce with the court later this week. It's sad but there's no other answer except we both need to dissolve the marriage.
I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm, and administering to the poor and dividing his substance, than the long smooth faced hypocrites. I don't want you to think I am very righteous, for I am not very righteous. God judgeth men according to the light he gives them. (Words of Joseph Smith, p. 204 – May 18, 1843)

conflicted testimony
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by conflicted testimony » 01 Jan 2014, 16:51

I suggest you watch the movie Fireproof.

I tried to get my husband to, and perhaps find a way forward. I even followed the steps myself towards him, unfortunately it doesn't seem to work in reverse. So it may work for you? Even if it doesn't you have made a good effort to save the marriage.

I truly believe that marriage should be forever and every effort should be made to keep it together. Of course it requires 2 to want to keep it together for that to happen and there are circumstances where it probably should be abandoned (Abuse, Adultery and Addiction are the big 3).

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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 01 Jan 2014, 17:07

So, in accordance with the mission of this site, how do each of us move forward and stay LDS (and do so with peace and happiness) no matter what happens with regard to the Word of Wisdom - and, especially, if nothing changes from the current situation?
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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jhp33
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by jhp33 » 09 Jan 2014, 12:53

Ray Degraw wrote:So, in accordance with the mission of this site, how do each of us move forward and stay LDS (and do so with peace and happiness) no matter what happens with regard to the Word of Wisdom - and, especially, if nothing changes from the current situation?
What I have committed to do is remember that my personal spiritual journey depends on personal revelation. Just as at some point children have to stop relying on the testimony of their parents, at some point we have to stop relying on the testimony of the prophets and form our own -- about EVERYTHING. Even the Word of Wisdom.

Now, do I have to accept that I am bound within some limits if I want to remain a member of the church. That means when I am asked in a TR interview if I keep the Word of Wisdom, I must answer honestly. But I am not required to give details, as that introduces the inherent biases of the interviewer. There are two sides to the equation.

My definition of what constitutes the WoW has absolutely changed. Does that mean I need to share that with the person interviewing me? Absolutely not. Does that mean I need to ponder and pray and meditate upon what that new interpretation means for me in my spiritual journey and my walk with God and make sure it aligns with my spirit? You better believe it.

GBSmith
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by GBSmith » 09 Jan 2014, 18:16

jhp33 wrote: My definition of what constitutes the WoW has absolutely changed. Does that mean I need to share that with the person interviewing me? Absolutely not. Does that mean I need to ponder and pray and meditate upon what that new interpretation means for me in my spiritual journey and my walk with God and make sure it aligns with my spirit? You better believe it.
I've finessed my responses to TR questions as regards the level of my testimony but I'd be a little careful about applying your own definition to what the WoW means when you know it's not what the bishop/SP thinks.

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by hawkgrrrl » 09 Jan 2014, 19:22

When does the WoW get disavowed? Same time garments are tossed aside, which is to say never. There is no upside for the church, and there is a downside (in both cases). Additional requirements like these create stronger commitment. The downside to WoW in particular is that it's not exactly right as a health code. People drink tea and live past 100 years. Coffee and wine both have health benefits. Carbs will kill you faster than either one for most people. But it does give people a way to visibly change their lives and declare their Mormonness.

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DarkJedi
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by DarkJedi » 09 Jan 2014, 20:29

GBSmith wrote:
jhp33 wrote: My definition of what constitutes the WoW has absolutely changed. Does that mean I need to share that with the person interviewing me? Absolutely not. Does that mean I need to ponder and pray and meditate upon what that new interpretation means for me in my spiritual journey and my walk with God and make sure it aligns with my spirit? You better believe it.
I've finessed my responses to TR questions as regards the level of my testimony but I'd be a little careful about applying your own definition to what the WoW means when you know it's not what the bishop/SP thinks.
I agree with you in principle GBS, but on the other hand, my definition has changed, too. 15 years ago I wouldn't touch a caffeinated soda believing it was against the WoW. I no longer believe that, among other things. I do live the WoW, I never liked coffee or booze that much anyway and after watching people close to me die of smoking related diseases, I'd never touch tobacco. That said, what if your bishop/SP still believes that caffeine is part of the WoW? Since there are lots of members out there that believe it still, there must be leaders who believe it, too. We really can't know what the bishop/SP thinks about any of the questions, but we can know what we think as individuals. I take the approach that if I feel it's right between me and God, I can answer the question appropriately, whether it be WoW, tithing, wearing garments, or whatever. My view of what it means to sustain is probably very much in line with what many here believe, but probably not in line with what many more orthodox members believe it means. I do, however, sustain the leaders of the church regardless of what the bishop thinks it means. Since the questions really are just yes or no and no further explanation or commentary is is needed, I think we're pretty safe in applying our own definitions (within a certain amount of reason).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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GBSmith
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Re: When Does Word of Wisdom get disavowed?

Post by GBSmith » 09 Jan 2014, 23:27

DarkJedi wrote:
GBSmith wrote:
jhp33 wrote: My definition of what constitutes the WoW has absolutely changed. Does that mean I need to share that with the person interviewing me? Absolutely not. Does that mean I need to ponder and pray and meditate upon what that new interpretation means for me in my spiritual journey and my walk with God and make sure it aligns with my spirit? You better believe it.
I've finessed my responses to TR questions as regards the level of my testimony but I'd be a little careful about applying your own definition to what the WoW means when you know it's not what the bishop/SP thinks.
I agree with you in principle GBS, but on the other hand, my definition has changed, too. 15 years ago I wouldn't touch a caffeinated soda believing it was against the WoW. I no longer believe that, among other things. I do live the WoW, I never liked coffee or booze that much anyway and after watching people close to me die of smoking related diseases, I'd never touch tobacco. That said, what if your bishop/SP still believes that caffeine is part of the WoW? Since there are lots of members out there that believe it still, there must be leaders who believe it, too. We really can't know what the bishop/SP thinks about any of the questions, but we can know what we think as individuals. I take the approach that if I feel it's right between me and God, I can answer the question appropriately, whether it be WoW, tithing, wearing garments, or whatever. My view of what it means to sustain is probably very much in line with what many here believe, but probably not in line with what many more orthodox members believe it means. I do, however, sustain the leaders of the church regardless of what the bishop thinks it means. Since the questions really are just yes or no and no further explanation or commentary is is needed, I think we're pretty safe in applying our own definitions (within a certain amount of reason).
There's a statement on LDS.org in, I think, August of 12012 that caffeine is not a part of the word of wisdom. It was put up as response to a news report so I think that question has been answered. Here's a piece in the SLTrib by Peggy Fletcher Stack about it. http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?i ... pe=storyID
And I agree with Hawkgrrl and I stated early on in the thread, don't hold your breath about a change in the WoW.

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